WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

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WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by Mike_Walsh » 2019-09-15, 22:25

Evening, all

Just out of curiosity, what's the position - either now, or for the forseeable future - with the 'possible' inclusion of the DRM WideVine modules?

Due to the increasing age of my hardware, Palemoon is now always my first choice as a browser in the various spins of the 'Puppy' Linux OS that I use as a daily driver. I've used Chrome right from day one, back in September 2008; at the time, Firefox had a tendency to crash at the slightest excuse, and with my 'work-flow' in those days, I needed something more reliable. Chrome fitted the bill.

Unfortunately, Chrome (as is the case with Firefox) has 'ballooned' over the years.....and I'm still running the same hardware, for personal reasons I won't go into. Thus, PM is now very much more relevant and usable for me nowadays.....and if the WideVine modules were included, it would be the perfect browser for me. I only keep the other two around for NetFlix, really.....although I do produce 'Puppy'-specific packages of Chrome for the community, too, since the standard 'multi-user' model doesn't work satisfactorily with Pup's rather unique way of doing things (single-user, with admin privileges. No point running as a user, needing to use 'sudo', when you yourself are the system admin, is there?)

As I said, not a request, as such.....more of a curious enquiry, really.


Mike. :)

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Re: WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by Nigaikaze » 2019-09-15, 22:33

Mike_Walsh wrote:
2019-09-15, 22:25
Just out of curiosity, what's the position - either now, or for the forseeable future - with the 'possible' inclusion of the DRM WideVine modules?
Read the roadmap:
What is explicitly not on our roadmap:
In-browser DRM. We continue to support DRM-capable NPAPI plugins like Silverlight as an alternative.
DRM will not be included in Pale Moon. You can search the forum for prior discussions as to why that decision was made.

If you need DRM, you can use Basilisk instead, but there are current issues with WideVine in Basilisk that are still being worked on.
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Re: WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2019-09-15, 22:34

Never going to happen.
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Re: WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by RJARRRPCGP » 2019-09-15, 23:05

Mike_Walsh wrote:
2019-09-15, 22:25
Firefox had a tendency to crash at the slightest excuse
Off-topic:
That sounds more like Midori today, sadly.

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Re: WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by fatboy » 2019-09-16, 06:50

Mike_Walsh wrote:
2019-09-15, 22:25
Just out of curiosity, what's the position - either now, or for the forseeable future - with the 'possible' inclusion of the DRM WideVine modules?
Yo MIke,

I suggest you try Basilisk. It includes the DRM modules and is of similar "lightness" than Pale Moon. Great Browser

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Re: WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by Pentium4User » 2019-09-16, 08:50

Is there a possibility to add the DRM functionality, e.g. with an addon or a plugin?

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Re: WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by Moonraker » 2019-09-16, 09:09

Pentium4User wrote:
2019-09-16, 08:50
Is there a possibility to add the DRM functionality, e.g. with an addon or a plugin?
Not possible with an extension or a plugin.DRM has to be hard coded into palemoon and as stated it is never going to happen so basilisk or indeed any other browser will be the alternative.As tobin or whatever title he goes under has said "never going to happen" seems final and resolute and this thread has quickly imploded as a result.."take it or leave it" as my mum used to say.
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Re: WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by Pentium4User » 2019-09-16, 09:14

The problem is that these parts are not open source . I can completely understand that they do not like to include it.

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Re: WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by Moonraker » 2019-09-16, 09:19

Pentium4User wrote:
2019-09-16, 09:14
The problem is that these parts are not open source . I can completely understand that they do not like to include it.
Sites that employ DRM also do a bit of user agent sniffing and shut the door tight on what google consider unknown browsers and to be expected they wish people to use chrome.As time marches on this will be more of a problem for non chrome users.
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Re: WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by moonbat » 2019-09-16, 09:40

Pentium4User wrote:
2019-09-16, 09:14
The problem is that these parts are not open source . I can completely understand that they do not like to include it.
Actually if they (Google or anyone else) wanted they could simply create an NPAPI plugin like Flash, which was also not open source, and let that be DRMed. It wouldn't affect Pale Moon since it is an external plugin anyway. Then again, not gonna happen thanks to Mozilla dumping all native customization features from NPAPI to XUL/XPCOM.
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Re: WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by Mike_Walsh » 2019-09-16, 17:14

Afternoon, all.

@ Nigaikaze:-

Thanks for the link. I hadn't got as far as the roadmap when I posted, so hadn't seen the statements on there.

@ fatboy:-

Basilisk, huh? Hm. A number of folks have been playing around with this over at the 'Puppy' Forums in recent months. TBH, we've got so many Mozilla 'clones' available for Puppy there's a limit to the number you can get around to testing.....and newcomers to that list have to be pretty outstanding to even get noticed.

I'll take a look if and when I get a chance. I'm pretty much settled with Palemoon as my daily driver by now, and since I already run other browsers to access NetFlix anyway, I'll just carry on 'as is'. And since Palemoon has replaced SeaMonkey as the default, built-in browser for new Pups, it must have something going for it, wouldn't you say? :lol:

@ moon bat:-

Nope. No way. Like you, I don't see Google going out of their way to put something like that together. They could.....but they won't. Their own 'roadmap' tends to be sketched-out years ahead, and they don't usually deviate from it very far, if at all.

And on top of all that, they want you to use Chrome, of course. Personally, I've used Chrome from day one, back in September 2008. It was light, fast, and extremely responsive then; ever since, it's just got steadily bigger, heavier & slower.

In recent years, I've switched to the Iron browser. Not because I care how much data 'Big Brother' has amassed on me - probably as much as a stack of Bibles by now, I shouldn't wonder.....and personally, I couldn't care less - but simply because it's just 'better' than Chrome, to my way of thinking.

Never mind... Can't have everything!


Mike. :)

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Re: WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by CharmCityCrab » 2019-09-16, 18:10

Just from the perspective of market positioning, it is worth noting that Pale Moon may have done some things (and may have some licenses) that may not appeal to the diehard GNU absolutists, but by declining to implement DRM modules, is also making itself a bit less attractive for people who are less ideological about free software (Though perhaps attracted to it if doesn't conflict with the last part of this sentence) and want their browser to "just work" with all their favorite sites. It's a bit of a neither fish or fowl thing. Of course, a browser can choose to be that, but it may hurt their overall user adoption and retention numbers relative to picking a side, so to speak.

Where is the Wildvine and EME DRM in Basilik's code? Is it in their version of the UXP Platform code? If so, would separate but concurrent releases of Pale Moon with DRM modules (Essentially the Pale Moon application code with the Basilik version of UXP) and Pale Moon without DRM modules (As it is currently) be a possible? Would that add a ton of work, or would it be fairly easily to achieve given that Basilik and Pale Moon already share most or all of their platform code? Maybe that's the answer in terms of allowing user choice, preserving both the user feature in previous versions of Pale Moon where DRM just works, while also preserving the positioning of the architecture of DRM never touching the code from previous versions of Pale Moon in a DRM-free version of the browser (Previously, DRM tended to be in installable separately, which is no longer possible, but two different versions of the browser might be the closest possible thing to that.).

If Pale Moon sticks to declining to do the stuff in the above paragraph *and* if it is technically simple to do, would anyone be interested in doing their own Pale Moon based browser that just adds the extra Basilik DRM support into it? Of course, they would have to also replace the Pale Moon name and logo on that "re-spin", but they could use the updates for Pale Moon and Basilik as bases for their upgrades, and just add their evergreen changes/methodology (Add Basilik platform code with DRM to Pale Moon application code, change name and logo, test, release) to each new version and then release the updates on a slight delay.

Of course, if someone *does* do the above outside the purview of Pale Moon, it would be nice if they would also give back to the UXP and Pale Moon code bases by contributing patches upstream and/or doing some collaborative work on UXP if they have the time and ability to contribute back, though it would not be strictly necessary from a legal perspective or anything- just a nice thing to do (And something that might allow for a positive relationship with Pale Moon devs rather than a hostile or indifferent one.).

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Re: WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2019-09-16, 21:26

Why is there a conversation going on about this? There is nothing to discuss. If you don't what the hell you are even talking about let alone the score by now then you should leave the forum and never return.

This means you CharmCityCrab.
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Re: WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by CharmCityCrab » 2019-09-16, 23:05

New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2019-09-16, 21:26
Why is there a conversation going on about this? There is nothing to discuss. If you don't what the hell you are even talking about let alone the score by now then you should leave the forum and never return.

This means you CharmCityCrab.
You have got to be the single biggest barrier to wider adoption of Pale Moon. Every time I see Pale Moon come up anywhere, or an article written about it, somewhere in the comment section or the equivalent, there is someone saying something to the effect of "The developers are assholes" mentioning ditching or not using the browser for that reason and a chain of people agreeing. I realize Pale Moon doesn't have a huge machine behind it and that it basically was never going to compete in terms of sheer users with the big corporate browsers, but there is a reason you're losing out even to the obviously inferior small browsers like Waterfox, and that there isn't much uptake of Pale Moon as a default browser or even in the main official repository on major Linux distros. And it's mostly you who has this attitude. Moonchild can be mildly offensive at times, but you're just flat out openly antagonistic even when you're presented with little cause to be.

I know your next comment is going to be about how you're not a developer for Pale Moon, to which I'd say just last night you cut someone off telling them you already instructed them not to work on something a certain way, and there's always stuff like that going on around here. You like to have it both ways. If you're not a developer, one can certainly see why the impression exists that you are.

But the larger issue is just that you're mean and people see it pretty clearly. Lately, you've taken to flaming me constantly. But I'm not the first one or the only one. A lot of the divide between uBlock Origin and Pale Moon is your personal feud with Gorhill- which also costs PM users, and will cost them more yet if the Firefox legacy branch disappears or starts being maintained in such a way as to make it incompatible with PM. What's with the anger management issues, Matt? What'd I ever do to you? What'd the world do to you? And what's a New Tobin Paradigm anyway?

This bizarre shit is bring down your project, or the project you used to or sometimes work on when you feel claiming to do so is convenient or whatever- Pale Moon. If your goal is to grow Pale Moon, what you're doing is completely counterproductive. It's also the behavior of an asshole.

I've been trying to turn the other cheek and mostly respond civilly to your flames, but I'm sick of it. From here on in, it's a flame for a flame, Matty. If you want to ban me for that, go ahead, but people will see that there's a double standard and that you get to say whatever you want, and people who respond to it are locked out.
Last edited by CharmCityCrab on 2019-09-16, 23:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by Nigaikaze » 2019-09-16, 23:29

CharmCityCrab wrote:
2019-09-16, 18:10
Where is the Wildvine and EME DRM in Basilik's code?
[Just sits here, shaking my head.]
New Tobin Paradigm wrote:
2019-09-16, 21:26
Why is there a conversation going on about this?
My thought, exactly.

CharmCityCrab, read the Pale Moon roadmap. It ain't gonna happen. Period. As I stated above,
Nigaikaze wrote:
2019-09-15, 22:33
You can search the forum for prior discussions as to why that decision was made.
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Re: WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by moonbat » 2019-09-17, 01:28

CharmCityCrab wrote:
2019-09-16, 18:10

Where is the Wildvine and EME DRM in Basilik's code? Is it in their version of the UXP Platform code?
It would be specific to Basilisk. UXP is a generic application platform like its Mozilla ancestor, not just for browsers but any standalone application like the erstwhile Songbird/Nightingale media libraries, hence would not have browser specific DRM in it. So for technical reasons as well, adding DRM to Pale Moon would be cumbersome even if the intent was there. This is all my speculation though, I haven't seen any code.
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Re: WideVine & the DRM modules.....what's the position with these?

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2019-09-17, 01:38

I could do it. All that is missing is the UI components and listening to observers and whatnot. However, it still isn't going to happen for Pale Moon or my projects and I will not help anyone with it either because I feel it is just wrong.

That being said.. We do need to get it fixed in general to use the new widevine api for the Basilisk though. I am mostly ok for the capability to exist as long as it is optional at build time. While technically we haven't completely distangled the EME components from any UXP Application.. Without specifically enabling it and widevine.. The parts that aren't completely separate yet are rendered inoperative and the capability probe of it returns unsupported from the perspective of the web and it will never get anywhere close to attempting to retrieve the blackbox components. Namely the CDM its self.

I do want it completely gone though if not built so that will happen at some point as a development goal in general for UXP unless specifically enabled at build time.
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