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Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Sat, 27 Aug 2016, 06:51
by trava90
With work continuing on Pale Moon 27's development, we have come to some decisions regarding the Linux version. Below are our current plans for v27 and beyond:

1. Currently we provide "generic" Linux binaries for 64-bit, 32-bit, as well as a specialized 32-bit build for Intel Atom processors. Much like their Windows counterparts, these Atom optimized builds do not perform significantly better than our regular Linux builds, and as such beginning with Pale Moon 27 the Linux Atom builds will be dropped and no longer provided by us. This will reduce complexity, both for us and the user, as well as allow us more time to focus on making core Pale Moon better, rather than supporting processor-specific builds. With that said, if you feel that the community would benefit from an Atom optimized Linux build, you are more than welcome to provide and maintain one! Please contact me if you're interested in doing this.

2. We are also considering dropping the generic 32-bit build as well. 32-bit Linux is becoming increasingly irrelevant in today's world. Many distro's either already have (such as Red Hat/CentOS, PCLinuxOS, etc.), or are talking about (Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSUSE, etc.) no longer providing a 32-bit option. This will allow us to give the much more widely used 64-bit build more attention during our beta testing cycles. With that being said, we have no intention to break or remove 32bit compiler support from the code. I'd like to hear if any of you do still use 32 bit and the reasons why.

3. It has never been part of Pale Moon's mission to support older legacy technology or operating systems. With that in mind, we will be updating our build environment to CentOS 7. As a result, Pale Moon 27 will drop support for kernels below 3.10 (all modern Linux systems already use kernels newer than this). Newer system libs will be required as well, such as GTK 2.24, GLib 2.36, etc. (again, all modern Linux distros already use these updated libs). Moving to CentOS 7 will make our build environment easier to set up and maintain, allow us to easily build against newer libs (such as GTK, GStreamer, PulseAudio, etc.), and will make it easier to take advantage of newer compilers as we see fit.

Please note that all of the above only applies to the "generic" binaries that will be available at linux.palemoon.org and downloaded by the pminstaller.

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Sat, 27 Aug 2016, 12:25
by ketmar
i am still using 32-bit OS, and have no plans to switch, and so my father. yet i'm ok with building my own binary, as i am already doing that. dunno about father, tho, 'cause he is using different distro.

the reason for not switching is simple: i don't need 64 bits. ;-)

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Sat, 27 Aug 2016, 14:42
by themew
Throwing my 2 cents in, all 3 suggestions sound great to me. Thumbs UP for the progress of Pale Moon Linux!! Absolutely love the browser and it only gets better.

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Sat, 27 Aug 2016, 15:00
by JustAnAccount
Sounds great! Really looking forward to Pale Moon 27.

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Sat, 27 Aug 2016, 20:40
by Nigaikaze
ketmar wrote:i am still using 32-bit OS, .... i don't need 64 bits. ;-)

Ditto here - we have a couple of boxes that are running 32-bit Mint just because we don't need a 64-bit OS running on them.

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Sat, 27 Aug 2016, 22:42
by ninaholic
Nigaikaze wrote:
ketmar wrote:i am still using 32-bit OS, .... i don't need 64 bits. ;-)

Ditto here - we have a couple of boxes that are running 32-bit Mint just because we don't need a 64-bit OS running on them.

My CPU (Pentium M) is 32-bit, so 64-bit is not an option on it. Everything else sounds ok to me I think.

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Sun, 28 Aug 2016, 02:23
by SfdudePM
My PCs are all Linux 32-BIT.
I do not intend or need to change to 64 bits...

Please. please...
keep the generic 32-bit version of Palemoon alive
.

SFdudePM
San Francisco

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Sun, 28 Aug 2016, 03:58
by Moonchild
Considering the general response here I've poked at some log files for stats and it seems quite a few of our Linux users (if going by useragent) are still on i686 (~20%!). I think we may have to keep 32-bit around for a bit longer? Of course I have no idea how many of those are using our binaries and how many are built from source...

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Sun, 28 Aug 2016, 14:37
by Pale Moon Nili
Hi! I'm using 32bit Linux Debian (Jessie-stable) / Pale Moon Latest version: 26.4.0.1 (x86 tar.bz2) binary version.
I really hope you keep longer as much you can 32-bit.

My old Dell from (2007) using Debian netinst. Customized very minimal for my preferences. Pale Moon is my main browser. It's very light too.

32-bit aren't that older. The noted distro's above are corporate works. Often they make decisions contrary to the measure according to their plans.
Please keep going with 32-bit. Thank you very much for your possibility, you're giving us a better navigation feeling with Pale Moon.

Nili

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Sun, 28 Aug 2016, 15:03
by trava90
Based on feedback we've received thus far (and the logs that Moonchild has pulled) 32bit Linux builds won't be going anywhere. :)

I'll evaluate if cross-compiling in our new CentOS 7 environment works (have previously run into issues), or if we'll continue using our current environment for 32-bit builds.

Thanks all for your feedback so far!

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Sun, 28 Aug 2016, 16:24
by Pale Moon Nili
That's good news trava90 - Thank you guys, I appreciate people behind Pale Moon hearing users feedback. :clap:
Nili

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Sun, 28 Aug 2016, 16:53
by New Tobin Paradigm
May be a good idea for 32bit builds to consider it somewhat of a compatibility build least for the time being. So it could use those older libs and older compiler ABI etc..

The thing about 32bit on linux is unless your hardware is not capable of running 64 bit code (using processors more than 7-10 years old) there is no objective reason to use 32bit.. It isn't like there are a bunch of 32bit npapi plugins running around linux we need to support.. Only old hardware and older linux systems.. Which I question if the systems aren't actually 64bit in most cases and users are using 32bit out of habit or some misconception.

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Sun, 28 Aug 2016, 18:11
by half-moon
I haven't really seen any real advantages of 64-bit distros over 32-bit distros. most modern 32-bit distros include support for PAE though, which allows you to use more than 4GB of RAM.

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Sun, 28 Aug 2016, 18:14
by Aube Bleue
trava90 wrote:Based on feedback we've received thus far (and the logs that Moonchild has pulled) 32bit Linux builds won't be going anywhere. :)

THANK YOU, Pale Moon developers, for listening to your users! :thumbup: Heart attack postponed, but for how long?

This is what Moonchild wrote on the matter just a few months ago: viewtopic.php?t=10797#p75490. I actually read and bookmarked that thread at the time and felt reassured, and feel reassured again today. :)

trava90 wrote:I'd like to hear if any of you do still use 32 bit and the reasons why.

Why? Simple: my laptop and two desktop computers are 32-bit. They work perfectly fine -- and I won't spend the extra money on newer hardware just for the sake of getting the 64-bit architecture. No way! I don't need the latest "shiney". Does this ring a bell, Pale Moon devs? ;) So I will use the computers I already have until they stop functioning.

trava90 wrote:It has never been part of Pale Moon's mission to support older legacy technology or operating systems.

Noted. But the fact is that Pale Moon performs really well on older machines, contrary to modern multiprocess bloated browsers. I do Linux installations for some clients "stuck" with older computers (like me). I even install Linux 32-bit on some 64-bit hardware with limited RAM because it performs better. And guess what browser I install almost systematically? The answer is clear: Pale Moon! Your generic 32-bit builds, Travis, work superbly on these!

In my opinion, discontinuing 32-bit versions would be way too early! As a reminder, Ubuntu 16.04 LTS (and thus Linux Mint 18) will be supported until 2021. So PLEASE don't do what Google did with Chrome (not that I care about Chrome -- I don't).

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Sun, 28 Aug 2016, 19:57
by SfdudePM
Thank you, Moonchild and Trava90
for listening to your 32-bit user community,
fans & friends of the great Pale Moon browser.
:clap: :clap: :clap:

I always use the pre-compiled
latest version to Upgrade my 32-bit Pale Moon browser -
(with the Bash update utility...works like a charm).

(Thank you!)^1000
SFdudePM

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Sun, 28 Aug 2016, 20:54
by trava90
Matt A Tobin wrote:May be a good idea for 32bit builds to consider it somewhat of a compatibility build least for the time being. So it could use those older libs and older compiler ABI etc..

Agreed. I think this is the best course going forward.

Aube Bleue wrote:Heart attack postponed, but for how long?

For as long as there's a substantial demand for it. It's not something we're just going to drop for no reason. If the time comes that we feel we should to re-evalute this (which I don't foresee happening for a long time), we will once again ask for community feedback before making a decision (as we've done here).

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Mon, 29 Aug 2016, 00:58
by 0strodamus
Thanks for keeping Pale Moon 27 on GTK2! If and when you decide to migrate to the abomination known as GTK3, I hope you don't remove the ability to compile against GTK2.

Regardless of Pale Moon's future plans I would like to give a big thanks for everything you guys have built and shared. It is greatly appreciated. :clap:

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Mon, 29 Aug 2016, 04:32
by Walter Dnes
For my own personal use, I build a slightly cut down version of the Atom build for my netbook. I could make an equivalant version available as a contributed build when 27 goes live. Anybody want an "Atom-build" equivalant build for v27? If so, a few questions...
  1. Do you want pulseaudio support?
  2. Do you want "Necko-Wifi", i.e. allowing a vendor to locate you based on nearby wifi IDs?
  3. Do you want WebRTC?
  4. Are you running 32 or 64 bit linux on the Atom?
  5. Finally, please post the output from the command

    Code: Select all

    gcc -march=native -E -v - </dev/null 2>&1 | grep cc1
    AS RUN ON YOUR ATOM. This is for figuring out the cpu type.

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Mon, 29 Aug 2016, 07:17
by New Tobin Paradigm
There is no justifiable reason for THESE kinds of contributed or otherwise builds anymore.. ALSO removing and changing features won't likely get certification and permission to use our branding as this would cause a lot of confusion.

Doing what is required for a platform target is one thing but dramatically changing the substance of what makes up the browser is quite another.

You can however follow the MPL and make your own materially changed browser with your own branding for distribution.

Re: Plans for Pale Moon for Linux 27

Posted: Mon, 29 Aug 2016, 07:32
by lightning slinger
0strodamus wrote:Thanks for keeping Pale Moon 27 on GTK2! If and when you decide to migrate to the abomination known as GTK3, I hope you don't remove the ability to compile against GTK2.

+1 :clap: