You know MC, a lot of people don't know the difference between the phrases "forked off from" and "based off from," or the word "FORK" in general! Maybe it's time to take up my suggestion and add the meaning of "fork" in a hyperlink or banner! Though I also have the feeling this won't matter.
Adblock???
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This board is for technical/general usage questions and troubleshooting for the Pale Moon browser only.
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This board is for technical/general usage questions and troubleshooting for the Pale Moon browser only.
Technical issues and questions not related to the Pale Moon browser should be posted in other boards!
Please keep off-topic and general discussion out of this board, thank you!
Re: Adblock???
Wow! I just came back from replying to the wrongfully statements made towards us at Ghacks, and just finally left it alone. So exhausting!! I also saw gorhill give a feedback or two, but sadly he thought the ABPT was in the right. Weird, I thought he would have been on board with us considering he knows first hand how difficult this specific issue is with us!
Off-topic:
You know MC, a lot of people don't know the difference between the phrases "forked off from" and "based off from," or the word "FORK" in general! Maybe it's time to take up my suggestion and add the meaning of "fork" in a hyperlink or banner! Though I also have the feeling this won't matter.
You know MC, a lot of people don't know the difference between the phrases "forked off from" and "based off from," or the word "FORK" in general! Maybe it's time to take up my suggestion and add the meaning of "fork" in a hyperlink or banner! Though I also have the feeling this won't matter.
With Pale Moon by my side, surfing the web is quite enjoyable and takes my headaches away!
God is not punishing you, He is preparing you. Trust His plan, not your pain. #TrentShelton #RehabTime
God is not punishing you, He is preparing you. Trust His plan, not your pain. #TrentShelton #RehabTime
Re: Adblock???
Well.. implementing ES6 has been an ongoing effort. FF 24 had about 24% of the new features implemented, FF 41 has about 68%. Quite a difference. Edge has 68% too by the way. Not too shabby. Chrome is lagging behind. Though I wouldn't call a browser outdated based on that alone, since they're all still in the process of getting there. It's just personalities and drama encroaching on what could be a purely technical argument, which is never good.
How is it looking with Palemoon's ES6 implementation effort, by the way? Since getting up to speed on that might make ABP (and other extensions using it) compatible again?
How is it looking with Palemoon's ES6 implementation effort, by the way? Since getting up to speed on that might make ABP (and other extensions using it) compatible again?
Re: Adblock???
Off-topic:
From the issue tracker:
The only person I think who has taken it personally is Palant...
1Everyone is entitled to having an opinion anyway.
This whole thread has really gotten derailed.
Gorhill made statements toward a user in which he is correct, the complaints of the ABP developers come from no support for ES6, and other later features that Mozilla Firefox implemented.1 The declined support for ABP in Pale Moon directly because they simply lack the man power. (And refused to create a add-on specifically for Pale Moon (which they could do any based it from Adblock Plus 2.5.1)). In the end it it their choice to support Pale Moon, or not, just as it is Moonchild's choice whether to block an add-on which harms the functionality of Pale Moon.LimboSlam wrote:Wow! I just came back from replying to the wrongfully statements made towards us at Ghacks, and just finally left it alone. So exhausting!! I also saw gorhill give a feedback or two, but sadly he thought the ABPT was in the right. Weird, I thought he would have been on board with us considering he knows first hand how difficult this specific issue is with us!
From the issue tracker:
Not sure why gHacks is making it out to be a personal issue (perhaps lack of research on their end), but lookt what Moonchild said in the comments, there was no personal conflict. In fact in the end Tobin did what one of the ABP developers advised.trev wrote:Supporting new platforms requires an enormous testing effort, something we simply cannot do for Pale Moon right now. As you know, Adblock Plus is open source software and you are always free to roll your own.
The only person I think who has taken it personally is Palant...
However as far as I know Pale Moon does not allow the installation of add-ons that have a minimum version higher than 24.9 under the Firefox GUID, so the reason for him taking it personally confuses me.Wladimir Palant wrote: The "stability problems" you blame on us are caused by your decision to ignore compatibility information of the extensions by the way, thank you very much for explaining that to your users.
1Everyone is entitled to having an opinion anyway.
This whole thread has really gotten derailed.
Re: Adblock???
Off-topic:
Honestly, all of this is very exhausting, indeed.Wikipedia has a good explanation of the term. If people don't exactly know what it is, then they can look it up, too!LimboSlam wrote:You know MC, a lot of people don't know the difference between the phrases "forked off from" and "based off from," or the word "FORK" in general! Maybe it's time to take up my suggestion and add the meaning of "fork" in a hyperlink or banner! Though I also have the feeling this won't matter.
I'm sorry if this addition to the extension blocking list caused inconvenience for some people, but it really was our only recourse with the mounting issues caused by the Firefox-ABP extension and no support by the ABP team for us as a target application.
One can always point a finger at us for "not implementing exactly those parts of a draft that the extension happens to use", of course, and make it sound compelling as an argument. That is, however, not the main issue here. The main issue is simply that ABP does not support Pale Moon as a browser, because it doesn't follow the same development path as Firefox, and no consideration is given to us because we are not keeping exact parity with Firefox (we likely wouldn't be a fork if we did).
It's also an argument you can't win, because something written specifically for Firefox will always have compatibility with Firefox, something that is not guaranteed for us. Whatever the reason for the incompatibility, someone looking from the standpoint of the perfect match will always be able to say it's Pale Moon's fault for "not having feature x or y" and they will be absolutely correct... from their standpoint. Now what if a Pale Moon extension builds on something Pale Moon has but Firefox does not? Whose fault would it be then if someone on Firefox would want to use the extension but can't? The same people would likely say in that case that it's the extension's fault, not Firefox's. But the situation would be exactly the same, just switched sides. I hope this makes sense to the readers of this long post (sorry about that. Am I rambling? I hope it's not too bad... ). Now, I agree that ES6 is a large task, and very complex to do right since so much hinges on Javascript in this family of browsers and there is no room for error. We could certainly do with more additions and improvements, implementing more parts from the draft, but that development process not being instantaneous is certainly not something you can fault us for, either, which is what Tharn touched on previously. As usual, too, for everyone running into an issue with something not being implemented, or not being implemented as-expected, the thing they would need is always "highest priority" for them, and wouldn't care much about other parts they don't need themselves.
It seems most people who are really upset by this are the people who were lucky enough to not yet run into the incompatibility issues, who were still using an older (and unmaintained) version of ABP on their system. We've clearly warned about this for many months, but it's apparently been ignored. We put time and effort into ABL, matched specifically to this browser, for a good reason; the refusal to use it, and instead favoring a stale and incompatible ABP version (with the same functionality, mind you) will always strike me as very odd, to say the least. Is it a loyalty issue? Is a different name and different maintaining developers such a hurdle for end-users? I thought most people cared about the end result, in this case...
Even so (And Axiomatic seems to have mid-aired here with me with the same), the ABP devs themselves have advised us to "roll our own". That is what ABL is.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
Re: Adblock???
Well, people, there you have it: If you insist you want to continue using ABP as an unsupported combination with Pale Moon, you can. The blocklist has been updated to make this use optional with a warning of known stability issues with Pale Moon.
Please do understand that if you go to addons.mozilla.org to (re-)install ABP, that it may serve you a very old version due to a bug on their website that they have still not fixed.
Please go to the version information -> all versions, and get 2.6.6.1 if you insist on using ABP; just clicking the green button on the add-on page will likely give you a 2.0 version that is very, very old.
Once again, we cannot and will not provide support for this known-incompatible combination of browser and extension.
Please do use Adblock Latitude or an alternative blocker when you are able.
Please do understand that if you go to addons.mozilla.org to (re-)install ABP, that it may serve you a very old version due to a bug on their website that they have still not fixed.
Please go to the version information -> all versions, and get 2.6.6.1 if you insist on using ABP; just clicking the green button on the add-on page will likely give you a 2.0 version that is very, very old.
Once again, we cannot and will not provide support for this known-incompatible combination of browser and extension.
Please do use Adblock Latitude or an alternative blocker when you are able.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
Re: Adblock???
Maybe the temporary block at least woke up some users that didn't realize that ABP is a potential trouble maker in combination with Pale Moon.
Re: Adblock???
Maybe Palant has problem with how this block is worded. Maybe it should say: This add-on is causing stability problems in Pale Moon because its incompatible with browser instead of saying: This add on is blocked because it has high risk causing stability or security problems. Maybe Palant think how it is worded will cause some not so technically oriented users to think that Adblock Plus generally cause stability and security problems and they would then blame Adblock Plus devs. I think that Palant is overreacting with his reactions in this matter.
Re: Adblock???
Maybe on the AMO page if the developer of ABP would stop remove all posts talking about issues, particularly those which do not please him, like just as example previously for acceptable ads, they would have more people that would be woken.SvenG wrote:Maybe the temporary block at least woke up some users that didn't realize that ABP is a potential trouble maker in combination with Pale Moon.
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Re: Adblock???
I hope I don't get my rear end chewed off too badly for what I'm about to say.Moonchild wrote:Well, people, there you have it: If you insist you want to continue using ABP as an unsupported combination with Pale Moon, you can. The blocklist has been updated to make this use optional with a warning of known stability issues with Pale Moon.
Please do understand that if you go to addons.mozilla.org to (re-)install ABP, that it may serve you a very old version due to a bug on their website that they have still not fixed.
Please go to the version information -> all versions, and get 2.6.6.1 if you insist on using ABP; just clicking the green button on the add-on page will likely give you a 2.0 version that is very, very old.
Once again, we cannot and will not provide support for this known-incompatible combination of browser and extension.
Please do use Adblock Latitude or an alternative blocker when you are able.
I think you've opened up a "can of worms" for yourself so to speak. By allowing the ABP extension to be used as an unsupported combination in Pale Moon, other users with their favorite extensions which are now not compatible with Pale Moon, will want the exact same treatment for their unsupported extension. Even WITH the warning, when future things go wrong again with ABP in conjunction with Pale Moon, you're going to hear complaints about it. In other words; "same song, second verse".
You've got enough on your plate already and you don't need to be piling on anymore in my opinion. If the browser would have been mine and if users don't want to or refuse to use ABL (Adblock Latitude), I would have bit the bullet and told them to use Firefox instead. But, it is your browser.
The above is just "food for thought".
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MX Linux 23.2 (Libretto) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
Linux Debian 12.5 (Bookworm) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
Re: Adblock???
With next versions of Firefox it will be the same, except "known stability issues" will be called "unverified", same kind of warning but in addition their add-ons not signed will be removed hehe.
Re: Adblock???
I wonder about the outrage. Why would people desperately want to keep using ABP when they are ABL and µBlock which both support ABP's filter lists very well?
Re: Adblock???
I'm just as confused as you are on that one.tuxman wrote:I wonder about the outrage. Why would people desperately want to keep using ABP when they are ABL and µBlock which both support ABP's filter lists very well?
Also, the way it's worded is something that has been Mozilla's choice - the blocklist doesn't separate security and stability issues, it's just there to provide a list of "these things shouldn't be installed" or "these things should be disabled". It's a single list of blocked items, and been designed to be a single list, not making the distinction between stability and security (and sometimes those two blend anyway, e.g. if it causes an exploitable crash -- stability for crash, security for exploitability).
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
Re: Adblock???
Wladimir Palant on gHacks responding to sven - August 5, 2015 at 1:32 pm #
As a very confused user i removed ABP long time ago. Hope my remark is acceptable.No, the block wasn't removed, merely turned into a soft block which users can override. Informing users about compatibility issues is one thing - this could be done by respecting the compatibility info of the extensions for example (but then Pale Moon would be unable to claim support for most Firefox extensions). But the blocklist is the wrong tool, it is meant to be used only as the last resort when an extension or plugin is outright dangerous to use - and the message displayed tells you exactly that. We've seen a bunch of very confused users reaching out to us via various channels, and I'm certain that the same was happening on Pale Moon forums as well. Too bad that Pale Moon developers insist on acting irresponsibly.
Re: Adblock???
There are no other examples of real FF forks. As such there are of course no precedents for incompatibilities that are not expected to resolve themselves. In that light, using the blocklist is a reasonable move for PM - but of course it's going to rustle feathers. Personally I wouldn't cave to the demands. I'd leave ABP disabled until PMs ES6 capabilities make it once again usable.
Re: Adblock???
Dear Mr. Palant, what, according to you, what would have been a more responsible way to resolve these issues?Wladimir Palant wrote:Too bad that Pale Moon developers insist on acting irresponsibly.
*sound of crickets or rehashing of previous points*
Re: Adblock???
I am confused too.
If i understand correctly , some months before , Tobin asked for support from ABP devs and they dennied , saying that the browser is mainly 'hobbyist' , based on an
old FF core and with doubtfull future.
O.k.
Now that some users who still use it , found some problems which are disscussed in other threads , due to its incopabillity with the browser , PaleMoon devs put the add on to the blocklist.
O.k with this too , fair enough.
While everything seems pretty logical to me , Mr.Palant's comments in ghacks , are..
So he claims that the blocklist is the wrong tool , because ABP users still want to use it , they are confused and thinks that ''Pale Moon developers insist on acting irresponsibly'''
Well,I m not a very smart person but I beleive that the only thing Mr.Palant wants is to count..downloads and who cares about incopabillities..
If i understand correctly , some months before , Tobin asked for support from ABP devs and they dennied , saying that the browser is mainly 'hobbyist' , based on an
old FF core and with doubtfull future.
O.k.
Now that some users who still use it , found some problems which are disscussed in other threads , due to its incopabillity with the browser , PaleMoon devs put the add on to the blocklist.
O.k with this too , fair enough.
While everything seems pretty logical to me , Mr.Palant's comments in ghacks , are..
So he claims that the blocklist is the wrong tool , because ABP users still want to use it , they are confused and thinks that ''Pale Moon developers insist on acting irresponsibly'''
Well,I m not a very smart person but I beleive that the only thing Mr.Palant wants is to count..downloads and who cares about incopabillities..
Re: Adblock???
who is mr. Palant after all? he is not even a CTO of the company that releasing ABP!
p.s. sorry, i forgot to put a smile here.
p.s. sorry, i forgot to put a smile here.
Last edited by ketmar on 2015-08-05, 19:15, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Adblock???
My official position on this whole situation is.. Well nothing.. It doesn't change the fact ABP is incompatible and on a good day is only half broken. It has been as such for 10+ months. Adblock Latitude has been around for almost that length of time and will continue to do what it was created to do, be a fully functional drop-in replacement for users of ABP.
The only thing that has truly changed lies in the realm of PR and perception. I have done the PR stuff and clearly explained the situation as it was and as it stands today including the history.
As much as I may personally like getting involved in drama to prove my point, that is all this has become. The facts of the situation has not changed and neither have the solutions. So if you will excuse me I really do have an extension to update and much more work that goes beyond one extension we have already swiftly provided a solution for.
The only thing that has truly changed lies in the realm of PR and perception. I have done the PR stuff and clearly explained the situation as it was and as it stands today including the history.
As much as I may personally like getting involved in drama to prove my point, that is all this has become. The facts of the situation has not changed and neither have the solutions. So if you will excuse me I really do have an extension to update and much more work that goes beyond one extension we have already swiftly provided a solution for.
Re: Adblock???
I hope nobody would have mind of this, but I just contacted the author of Ghacks and told him to stop any new commits form being made because this post has started a flame war with some very antagonizing commits towards both party's (I included). I also want to make it clear that I agree with both MC/Matt A. Tobin and Wladimir Palant opinions on the issue. Lastly, to be honest, I just wish this could have all been avoided and handled better.
Now lets just move on please, this is very annoying and exhausting.
Now lets just move on please, this is very annoying and exhausting.
With Pale Moon by my side, surfing the web is quite enjoyable and takes my headaches away!
God is not punishing you, He is preparing you. Trust His plan, not your pain. #TrentShelton #RehabTime
God is not punishing you, He is preparing you. Trust His plan, not your pain. #TrentShelton #RehabTime
Re: Adblock???
Personal opinion follows; feel free to ignore and please let me know if I am out of line.
1) It is good to know that Moonchild and staff take the project very seriously, intelligently, and thoughtfully. I understand exactly why the issue has been handled as it has been. And congrats on Adblock Latitude!
2) IMHO Mr. Palant, regardless of his huge and welcome contribution in developing ABP in the first place, has a very poor attitude to Pale Moon, and is not dealing with this issue in a mature fashion.
1) It is good to know that Moonchild and staff take the project very seriously, intelligently, and thoughtfully. I understand exactly why the issue has been handled as it has been. And congrats on Adblock Latitude!
2) IMHO Mr. Palant, regardless of his huge and welcome contribution in developing ABP in the first place, has a very poor attitude to Pale Moon, and is not dealing with this issue in a mature fashion.