Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Users and developers helping users with technical Pale Moon issues (Windows and other non-Linux O.S.). Please direct questions about the Linux version to the appropriate Linux board.

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This board is for technical/usage questions and troubleshooting for the Pale Moon browser only. The main focus here is on Pale Moon on Windows. Please direct your questions for Linux, Android and Mac to the dedicated boards.
Technical issues and questions not related to the Pale Moon browser should be posted in "technical chat"
Please keep off-topic and general discussion out of this board, thank you!
Sariel

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by Sariel » 2014-10-17, 00:07

In my opinion, Pale Moon's "new" direction is what I expected that would eventually happen from the start since I started using the browser. And I don't mind it. I've switched main browsers from Netscape to IE, to Firefox then to Opera and in the limbo of the change from Presto to Blink, I found Pale Moon (which I had already had as a secondary for some time before that). Pale Moon is my last bastion against the increasingly inefficient monstrosities of bloat with "shiny" useless features that mainstream browsers are becoming. And up till now, the dev team hasn't given me any reason to cloud my hopes.
brushy wrote:. . . it is the only browser which can open certain links.
Which are?
mikeysc wrote:As far as free discussion goes, my preference would be separating the board into advanced, power users (incl. beta-testers, addons tweakers, developers, etc.) and novice/casual users. The sheer number of posts that you have to read now just to get to the intelligent discussion is overwhelming. Notice how many people come here and their first post(s) is just to complain, like about not being warned about changes. Duh... if you don't read, how could you be warned! Power users should be able to freely share knowledge without worrying about if a noob is going to misuse it.

Have a nice day folks, get outside, in the real world - the weather is beautiful here.
I disagree, segregation shouldn't be an option, especially since I believe its healthy for the forum to have experienced and knowledgeable users exchanging ideas with the casual/average users. After all, Pale Moon isn't meant for just "power users". The increase of complaints is expected, especially during transitional milestones in the development, so while tiresome, its something that will always happen whenever huge changes occur.

brushy

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by brushy » 2014-10-17, 00:15

Which are edited 2 times.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2014-10-17, 00:41

brushy wrote:Which are edited 2 times.
Off-topic:
Howabout you pay more attention your own stuff and less to my moderation and edit history kthanx
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brushy

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by brushy » 2014-10-17, 00:53

Calling novices idiots is moderation for you? for today i prefer to let you between power users, i return to the old internet.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2014-10-17, 02:33

brushy wrote:Calling novices idiots is moderation for you? for today i prefer to let you between power users, i return to the old internet.
No.. that would be paying to much attention to my edit history..
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mikeysc

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by mikeysc » 2014-10-17, 03:04

I think we all should stay on topic - freely discuss new PM direction - at least from here on out, if not also delete any previous posts here that became personal bickering, way too much of that lately. I'll go back and edit/delete my recent posts that are out of line (I was riled up earlier today but not due to this site). Remember we're supposed to be on the same side here and the bad guys we have to fight are elsewhere.

It's clear to me from dealing with the list (so far) of known good extensions that work without modification that things aren't as bad as they seem from the posts here. Anybody who wants to and will behave is welcome to join me in chat, especially for addon issues (PrivateMsg me for the address/key). The big guy is even nice when he's there. :)

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2014-10-17, 03:10

Yeah, you are quite correct.
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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by [o_o] » 2014-10-18, 20:02

The only changes in v25 that affected me so far are the independent user agent and the new "blank page" tab.
Different HTTP responses by user agent is really a server side issue. Nothing to complain about Pale Moon.
The new "blank page" tab option is misleading. A blank page is not supposed to have any source code. In my opinion, developers should add a fourth option (default, if they want) in the drop-down list named "A logo page" or alike.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-10-18, 20:08

For the few who have complained about a "blank page" that should not have source code -- about:blank also has source code; Mozilla has just made a point of hiding the internal code of it. This is for the simple reason that a web browser cannot render a truly "empty document".

"Blank" just means "no web content or active content". You can't do anything with the page and it doesn't display any web content.
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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by sIDcORK » 2014-10-18, 23:35

For those who want a blank page on a new tab, about:config > browser.newtab.url Modify the string to about:blank

Sorry Moonchild, pretty as the logo is I don't want it on a new tab.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by Trinoc » 2014-10-19, 18:38

Does anyone know what proportion of Pale Moon users read this forum?

The reason I ask is: if the Pale Moon used by an "ordinary" user has auto-updated to V25 (or if the user has checked for updates and thought "Oh look, a new version, I'd better install it!"), and then finds out that certain add-ons don't work, and certain web sites don't like the user agent string, how will that user know where to look to find the corrected add-ons and ways to change the user agent to fix these problems?

chreid

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by chreid » 2014-10-19, 19:23

Trinoc wrote:Does anyone know what proportion of Pale Moon users read this forum?

The reason I ask is: if the Pale Moon used by an "ordinary" user has auto-updated to V25 (or if the user has checked for updates and thought "Oh look, a new version, I'd better install it!"), and then finds out that certain add-ons don't work, and certain web sites don't like the user agent string, how will that user know where to look to find the corrected add-ons and ways to change the user agent to fix these problems?
I have just recommended PM to someone and thought "oops bad timing - maybe a month ago would have been better".
Just send them to this forum! :D

cooperb21

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by cooperb21 » 2014-10-19, 22:36

Had to move back to firefox with firefox addon classic theme restorer. I really like palemoon but to many compatibility issues now. I dont mind doing a little extra work but its gotten to point that to many things dont work on the web and addons not supported.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by BobbyP » 2014-10-19, 22:47

cooperb21 wrote:Had to move back to firefox with firefox addon classic theme restorer. I really like palemoon but to many compatibility issues now. I dont mind doing a little extra work but its gotten to point that to many things dont work on the web and addons not supported.
If you prefer PM, why not revert to the latest version before 25.x for a bit, and let things "catch-up". As a decade+ Fx user, I often would hold back on updating versions, to allow the extension developers time to get caught up, as I use numerous extensions, at least a few of which are fairly complex. Just a thought, since in a few weeks, I bet PM will be most wonderful, again, and going forward.
Or, go with the Weasel for a bit, and check back when things have gotten sorted out....

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by Trinoc » 2014-10-19, 22:56

chreid wrote:I have just recommended PM to someone and thought "oops bad timing - maybe a month ago would have been better".
Just send them to this forum! :D
Yeah, trouble is not everybody is like us forum-ites, willing to put in extra effort to get what is ultimately a better browser working properly.

I recommended it to friend who is quite computer-literate, but what he does in life is write books. That's what he spends his time doing, not tinkering with his software to get it working just right. I'm thinking I should warn him, if it isn't too late, to turn off auto updates and not update to version 25 until it has had plenty of time to settle down. I feel a bit of a fool now, having told him a month or two ago that Pale Moon was a great browser with all of the good features of Firefox and none of the drawbacks, and anything he could do with Firefox he will be able to do even easier. Now I need to tell him that if he wants to keep up with the PM development path he'll have to check carefully whether all of his add-ons work properly, and if he comes across web sites that refuse to talk to him or present outdated versions of pages because they don't recognise the browser, he'll have to install another add-on to spoof the user agent, and configure it specially for every problematic web site he comes across.

I suspect he'll say something like "Sod it, I'll go back to Firefox!"
Last edited by Trinoc on 2014-10-20, 09:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Holding Of Recommending PM Till 25x/Extensions Stabilize

Unread post by BobbyP » 2014-10-19, 23:18

Trinoc wrote:Does anyone know what proportion of Pale Moon users read this forum?

The reason I ask is: if the Pale Moon used by an "ordinary" user has auto-updated to V25 (or if the user has checked for updates and thought "Oh look, a new version, I'd better install it!"), and then finds out that certain add-ons don't work, and certain web sites don't like the user agent string, how will that user know where to look to find the corrected add-ons and ways to change the user agent to fix these problems?
I have no idea, but I would bet, that for the time being, it's a much higher % than are over at the Weasel's lair, since PM is not currently as well known/used as Fx has become.

You raise a very good point, especially as PM becomes more widely adopted, and so possibly by less "dedicated" users. It might be a good idea to at least consider this, if it hasn't already been, in notifying users during an installation/updating of this, and even suggesting using a pre-25.x version, pending stabilization.

Here, on W7P, 25.0.1 seems stable, with 28 of my usual 50+ extensions (including Piro's TST, TMP, Titlebar Tweaker Plus) the Classic Compact Theme, and limited testing, to date. Some things are broken, but overall, it's doing ok.

I am holding off on recommending folks switch to PM that haven't already done so (and double check that auto-updating is NOT selected for those on 24x), until the 25x change-up stabilizes, which I hope will be with-in a few weeks. We are getting there!

A very big thank you to the developers, and all of the folks here, that have been doing yeomen's jobs of moving this great, timely project forward!

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2014-10-19, 23:45

That is already done. It is called... Reading the Release Notes and unless you missed it there is a link to it presented by the update manager.
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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by Supernova » 2014-10-20, 00:42

Matt A Tobin wrote:That is already done. It is called... Reading the Release Notes and unless you missed it there is a link to it presented by the update manager.
> As your screenshoot show well, the link is really tiny. Easy to miss.
> No special information otherwise that this is a major update. MC said this is related to switching "minor" to "major" so with auto-updates this show always ; however for people with auto-update off this is everything the same ; and in general there is just the lack of a big warning that make think before accepting.
> Not every user of pale moon know enough english to read full releases notes and understand what they implies ; and it definitely shouldn't be a deal breaker for pale moon use. With more and more people discovering PM via relatives, this will increase.

In general Tobin, I feel a kind of "it's already good" & "we aren't responsible of user dumbness" in your messages about how that PM25 story was handled. This approach miss opportunity to think about what could have been done better (taking account of possibilities) and how to alleviate issues created by the true part of user dumbness (which isn't as big as it may seem in your messages). I may be wrong still, it's hard to guess how someone feel things with just a few texts.

arnie1

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by arnie1 » 2014-10-20, 03:02

This happens almost every time a major update first appears. The users get upset because the new version has a few major bugs, the developers get snarky because they have to answer the same questions over and over again, but things work out. We have to use the browser which best suits our needs. Right now, that's 24.7.2 for me. The security problems are about as likely to occur as lightning hitting a shark that's biting me and are mostly fixable by changes to the configuration. I'm taking the long view and will move to 25 when the issues are settled and we don't have thousands and thousands of posts to dig through. Until then, I've still got the browser which is best for me.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Unread post by _Poke_ » 2014-10-20, 03:09

As a long time, rarely posting Pale Moon user I fully support the new direction. In an age when other browsers can screw people over however they want it's important to have an alternative, and it should identify as itself whenever possible to spread awareness, and demand equal rights in this supposedly equal web.
Of my 16 extensions, the only two which broke were Stylish and Adblock Plus. Stylish was a simple (yet baffling) about:config edit, and Adblock still appears to be working, just no buttons, so I haven't even bothered getting the fixed version.

The new logo page is also very cool, on my laptop I made a stylish script to disable the picture's transparency to make it much more obvious.

Of course, this new direction isn't for everyone. People who aren't willing to customise and make things work are going to have trouble, and that's a shame because many of them may have just been seeking refuge from Australis without the need to fiddle and mess with things. I've always seen Pale Moon as being vastly better on both ends of the spectrum - A lot more customisable, and a lot less need to customise, and this update has damaged the ability to work "out of the box".

Still, this is no fault of Moonchild. In time, more extensions will become compatible as developers discover Pale Moon and the few straggling websites will accept the browser. We still have massive choice that Firefox doesn't in all their deprecated themes. :)

Compatibility aside, I'm proud to use Pale Moon. It will remain my web browser for the foreseeable future.
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