Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

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dark_moon

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by dark_moon » 2014-10-24, 13:09

I have the compact mode off too and didn't have any website which doesn't work.

Jonguy30

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by Jonguy30 » 2014-10-24, 13:15

Supernova wrote:
Moonchild wrote:
  • Added a "Firefox compatibility mode" selection in Options -> Advanced.
  • This mode is enabled by default (reluctantly so), because too many websites (including some very big players who, themselves, promote an Open Web...)
The very big players who promote open things only do that for public relations, or to promote that they shouldn't be restricted.
If antritust laws were applied, Google would no longer exist.
I also wonder how Google was able to build their own browser. Didn't Chrome encounter user-agent sniffing websites back when it was new? Or was it less widespread then? (2008 or so.. ?) Oh, and I also agree with you.

> Promotes open web
> Locks the world into using only 3 (maybe 4) web browsers
> ???
> Profit

:lol:

cooperb21

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by cooperb21 » 2014-10-24, 20:00

New update fixes most of issues i have now.... just the addons now a few key ones i use still dont work.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefo ... src=search

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefo ... cy/?src=ss

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by Night Wing » 2014-10-24, 20:25

back2themoon wrote:I've already disabled the Firefox Compatibilty mode
I've just installed 25.0.2 and the first thing I did was to disable Firefox Compatibility mode also. The only site that gives me a problem has been Google and the rest of the Google sites. So I've decided (for now) to keep the User Agent Overrider add-on/extension to get around Google "nagging" me to use Chrome or Firefox.
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cooperb21

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by cooperb21 » 2014-10-24, 20:47

For me it was just netflix and google. I have a feeling this issue will pop up again later on. When google or netflix switch to things like only there html 5 player which requires html5 drm. Mozilla is already forced into this just to stay competitive.

Silverlight and Flash is what firefox and palemoon has used but those solutions will not be available for much longer and it will need to be more like chrome.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by back2themoon » 2014-10-24, 21:06

It's important to understand that nothing was "fixed" on 25.0.2, but rather the "Firefox compatibility flag" was restored and set as enabled by default. Problematic websites work again of course but the root of the problem remains: websites that don't adhere to proper Internet standards/policies. You can "break" those websites again by disabling Options/Advanced/Firefox compatibility mode. It's not a Pale Moon-specific issue. The best we can do is to keep contacting such websites until they properly adjust their pages to support not only Pale Moon, but as a consequence any capable browser - without the need to temporarily mask the problem.

As cooperb21 said, this problem will come back and the current solution might not work any more.
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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2014-10-24, 21:13

back2themoon wrote:It's important to understand that nothing was "fixed" on 25.0.2, but rather the "Firefox compatibility flag" was restored and set as enabled by default. Problematic websites work again of course but the root of the problem remains: websites that don't adhere to proper Internet standards/policies. You can "break" those websites again by disabling Options/Advanced/Firefox compatibility mode. It's not a Pale Moon-specific issue. The best we can do is to keep contacting such websites until they properly adjust their pages to support not only Pale Moon, but as a consequence any capable browser - without the need to temporarily mask the problem.

As cooperb21 said, this problem will come back and the current solution might not work any more.
Well we did add a GUI option :thumbup:
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cooperb21

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by cooperb21 » 2014-10-24, 21:25

It wont be that soon i think but in a year or so i think you will see things like silver light go away and flash eventually. Most youtube videos work with html 5 now anyway and is default for most browsers.

Mozilla is gonna be forced into adding it soon since silver light and other things are going away and they need all sites to work on there browser. Though they did say you will have a choice in matter whether to interact with DRM in order to watch streaming videos in the browser.

Gonna be interesting to see since Firefox is last of the large open web browsers on there dam site they advertise there for "open web" and your privacy.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by Moonchild » 2014-10-24, 21:30

cooperb21 wrote:When google or netflix switch to things like only there html 5 player which requires html5 drm. Mozilla is already forced into this just to stay competitive.
HTML5 DRM is, in fact, still downloading a custom binary component - and in fact one that you aren't even legally allowed to analyze the behavior of (so it could pretty much contain any proprietary code that people would want to put in there! And even if you find out that it does something malicious or against privacy, you can't make it known to others because you'll get sued for reverse-engineering the module...).
So, all things being equal, you're still playing it through a plugin. The difference being that you don't install it yourself, and that it's hidden from you - but it's still a plugin.

DRM has no place in Pale Moon. Mozilla wasn't particularly forced into this, either, from a technological point of view. The statements by Mozilla upper management speak of "fear of becoming irrelevant" if DRM is not included - forward-looking statements that aren't even ringing true to me, personally. What appalls me most is that the WWW consortium is even feeling the need to consider this kind of proprietary inclusion as part of upcoming draft standards! :thumbdown:

This whole "competitive" or "relevance" edge is based on one single assumption: that the Internet needs Hollywood. But it's the other way around: Hollywood needs the Internet.
If Netflix were to switch to some kind of "you don't know what you are downloading and running" black box DRM HTML5-only shim to decode the videos, instead of the already perfectly working and properly isolated/sandboxed Silverlight+DRM modules (running in the low-integrity, limited access plugin container) they use now, then they can just keep their damn movies, and I'll get my streaming elsewhere.
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cooperb21

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by cooperb21 » 2014-10-24, 21:52

Moonchild wrote:
cooperb21 wrote:When google or netflix switch to things like only there html 5 player which requires html5 drm. Mozilla is already forced into this just to stay competitive.
HTML5 DRM is, in fact, still downloading a custom binary component - and in fact one that you aren't even legally allowed to analyze the behavior of (so it could pretty much contain any proprietary code that people would want to put in there! And even if you find out that it does something malicious or against privacy, you can't make it known to others because you'll get sued for reverse-engineering the module...).
So, all things being equal, you're still playing it through a plugin. The difference being that you don't install it yourself, and that it's hidden from you - but it's still a plugin.

DRM has no place in Pale Moon. Mozilla wasn't particularly forced into this, either, from a technological point of view. The statements by Mozilla upper management speak of "fear of becoming irrelevant" if DRM is not included - forward-looking statements that aren't even ringing true to me, personally. What appalls me most is that the WWW consortium is even feeling the need to consider this kind of proprietary inclusion as part of upcoming draft standards! :thumbdown:

This whole "competitive" or "relevance" edge is based on one single assumption: that the Internet needs Hollywood. But it's the other way around: Hollywood needs the Internet.
If Netflix were to switch to some kind of "you don't know what you are downloading and running" black box DRM HTML5-only shim to decode the videos, instead of the already perfectly working and properly isolated/sandboxed Silverlight+DRM modules (running in the low-integrity, limited access plugin container) they use now, then they can just keep their damn movies, and I'll get my streaming elsewhere.
To be fair palemoon is much much smaller and alot easier to say "no" to this sort of thing. Mozilla need to do it or some sites wont work going forward. Do you really think palemoon could not do same if it was size or Mozilla.?

What do you think will happen when one day an average internet user who uses firefox goes to netflix to find it will no longer work with firefox because Mozilla did not adopt this new tech into there browser? They wont look for a fix or way around if it does not just work they will go to Google Chrome.

Im trying to look at it at unbias point of view if Firefox wants to stay near level it is now or gain more it will need to do these sort of things with its browser its not as simple as just saying no it comes at a cost. If Mozilla wanted to become a smaller browser they could stick with what there doing now it all depends on where there taking the company.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2014-10-24, 22:28

Mozilla has the size and as one of the big three to actively fight this kind of thing as they have done back in the good ol' days. (No I don't have exact examples handy) but they could do it. They just... won't.
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cooperb21

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by cooperb21 » 2014-10-24, 22:38

Not really Chrome has like 50% of Market share. Firefox is less than 1/4 now.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2014-10-24, 22:42

cooperb21 wrote:Not really Chrome has like 50% of Market share. Firefox is less than 1/4 now.
Note I said Mozilla as in both the Foundation and the Company.. Not Firefox. There IS a difference despite appearances.
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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by Moonchild » 2014-10-24, 22:44

cooperb21 wrote:Not really Chrome has like 50% of Market share.
They would wish they had 50% :lol:
Good thing they don't or it'd result in more strong-arming by Google.
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cooperb21

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by cooperb21 » 2014-10-24, 22:49

Moonchild wrote:
cooperb21 wrote:Not really Chrome has like 50% of Market share.
They would wish they had 50% :lol:
Good thing they don't or it'd result in more strong-arming by Google.
They did have 50% back in 2012.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by Night Wing » 2014-10-25, 00:32

cooperb21 wrote:Not really Chrome has like 50% of Market share. Firefox is less than 1/4 now.
When it comes to desktop market share, Chrome has no where near 50%. More like 21%.

http://www.netmarketshare.com/browser-m ... pcustomb=0
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cooperb21

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by cooperb21 » 2014-10-25, 00:59

Night Wing wrote:
cooperb21 wrote:Not really Chrome has like 50% of Market share. Firefox is less than 1/4 now.
When it comes to desktop market share, Chrome has no where near 50%. More like 21%.

http://www.netmarketshare.com/browser-m ... pcustomb=0
How can we trust that website? Go to any other one and they all say chrome i could like about 20 plus.

For example wiki has 3 sites saying around 45% and only one saying ie is higher.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by Night Wing » 2014-10-25, 01:29

cooperb21 wrote:
Night Wing wrote:
cooperb21 wrote:Not really Chrome has like 50% of Market share. Firefox is less than 1/4 now.
When it comes to desktop market share, Chrome has no where near 50%. More like 21%.

http://www.netmarketshare.com/browser-m ... pcustomb=0
How can we trust that website? Go to any other one and they all say chrome i could like about 20 plus.

For example wiki has 3 sites saying around 45% and only one saying ie is higher.
Then how can we trust the web sites you prefer?
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cooperb21

Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by cooperb21 » 2014-10-25, 01:43

Night Wing wrote:
cooperb21 wrote:
Night Wing wrote:
cooperb21 wrote:Not really Chrome has like 50% of Market share. Firefox is less than 1/4 now.
When it comes to desktop market share, Chrome has no where near 50%. More like 21%.

http://www.netmarketshare.com/browser-m ... pcustomb=0
How can we trust that website? Go to any other one and they all say chrome i could like about 20 plus.

For example wiki has 3 sites saying around 45% and only one saying ie is higher.
Then how can we trust the web sites you prefer?
We cant its one mans word vs another. But i do know thats most people i know use chrome follow by ie then firefox.

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Re: Can we freely discuss the new Palemoon direction?

Post by Night Wing » 2014-10-25, 02:24

cooperb21 wrote:But i do know thats most people i know use chrome follow by ie then firefox.
Most of my friends use Pale Moon, not Chrome. Yet, in the small town I live in, there are many elderly people and they are computer illiterate. Do you know what browser they use? They use IE since it came with Windows 7.

How do I know this? Because the computer shop where I help out at, I have to clean the viruses off their Windows 7 computers and/or re-install Windows 7 on their computers. When I look at their installed programs in "Programs and Features", there is no listing for Google Chrome. I always ask them what browser do they use. It's always IE.

So I think Net Market Share is a good source for what desktop market share IE, Chrome and Firefox actually have.
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