Why is Pale Moon so slow?

[Basilisk-Dev]

Off-topic:

I haven't seen even the first attempt at things being committed to the repo, and sure as hell have not rejected things that were landed on "eUXP". There wasn't even as much as a peep on any of the issues that things were being worked on.

I second this. Moonchild has not rejected any of the code that was being referred to, as it was not submitted to upstream UXP in the first place.

[ownedbywuigi]

Off-topic:

Off-topic:

I haven't seen even the first attempt at things being committed to the repo, and sure as hell have not rejected things that were landed on "eUXP". There wasn't even as much as a peep on any of the issues that things were being worked on.

I second this. Moonchild has not rejected any of the code that was being referred to, as it was not submitted to upstream UXP in the first place.

Wait, what? I thought you attempted to submit it to upstream, but got rejected. I'm so stupid sometimes sorry

[Basilisk-Dev]

Off-topic:

Wait, what? I thought you attempted to submit it to upstream, but got rejected. I'm so stupid sometimes sorry

No worries, sorry if you misunderstood something I said.

[gabrgv]

Off-topic:
I though they were doing it on Github just because the Copilot thingy was handier xD. But it looks like there is interest in things like WebExtensions and e10s? Or I'm wrong?

[Mæstro]

There is no general interest in Web Extensions or Electrolysis. Because UXP diverged from FIrefox just before these were introduced, it is not too difficult in principle to implement them here, but the development team and most users (and all experienced UXP developers) firmly reject this out of principle. This does not stop others trying from time to time.

[honorific]

Off-topic:

I will still contribute to upstream UXP for issues that I think you all would want merged in.

I'm glad to hear that. As for the other parts of your post, my response to them has already been echoed. I do hope you keep the spirit of cooperation as the project depends on it (and really, all open-source projects do...) I don't think anybody here has vitriol or the like against you, more just exasperation at the situation. Your knowledge and drive for improvement is certainly welcome.

But it looks like there is interest in things like WebExtensions and e10s? Or I'm wrong?

It seems that's 2 of the things they wish to include in their fork, yes -- I suppose e10s is meant to be a temporary thing, as ownedbywuigi mentioned above. This is why I mentioned I suspect they came to the conclusion that this isn't what the userbase desires. It's unfortunate that the fork happened, and it's exceedingly childish to do so with zero desire for mutual discussion other than vaguely reopening issues (at least on Basilisk-Dev's part), but things like this happen sometimes. It's a nice lesson for the posters here on the value of communication.

[UCyborg]

I can think of 3 Web Extensions that I would use on Pale Moon.

[andyprough]

Off-topic:

It's unfortunate that the fork happened, and it's exceedingly childish to do so with zero desire for mutual discussion other than vaguely reopening issues (at least on Basilisk-Dev's part), but things like this happen sometimes. It's a nice lesson for the posters here on the value of communication.

Now I feel bad after reading those links having voiced support for this excursion. Sorry @athenian200 - you had good reason to be pissed off, I guess.

[walmar]

Off-topic:
I really hope that ownedbywuigi doesn't let himself be discouraged by some of the posts here.
I think there will be a noticeable difference compared to Google Firefox XTreme and its glorified derivatives. They forced users to forgo legacy extensions, non-e10s mode, bookmark descriptions, Direct3D compositing, and so on. With the browser developed by ownedbywuigi, users could once again choose what they want to use. There are multiple reasons to use or not to use e10s or to use legacy extensions or WebExtensions. Mozilla was evidently pursuing an agenda when it replaced or removed useful features. This left many users of Waterfox 56 and Firefox dissatisfied. I miss the spirit that has been gone ever since. The user's freedom to switch to any available preference without having to fulfill the expectations of others.

[Basilisk-Dev]

Off-topic:

... other than vaguely reopening issues (at least on Basilisk-Dev's part)

Could you please help me understand how me specifying something is not complete and providing a link to a page demonstrating a clear piece of CSS code using that feature that doesn't work is considered vague? I provided enough information for anyone to say "yes this is clearly incomplete" if they click on the link.

[honorific]

Off-topic:

... other than vaguely reopening issues (at least on Basilisk-Dev's part)

Could you please help me understand how me specifying something is not complete and providing a link to a page demonstrating a clear piece of CSS code using that feature that doesn't work is considered vague? I provided enough information for anyone to say "yes this is clearly incomplete" if they click on the link.

Certainly.

You see, it's important to take the full situation into account here. You went the past 2 weeks without any hint of providing the slightest bit of information or cooperation to the upstream repo (branching off without saying a word), and then only post something when Moonchild makes an attempt to merge your changes. The little you did say does not elucidate whether you plan to fully incorporate the issue-relevant changes or anything of a related nature. Quite literally this entire situation has transpired due to vagueness.

As a loose metaphor, let's suppose I disappear from work for two weeks. However, it turns out I didn't disappear; I was working on an improved version of the accounting tool in private! Incredible. It turns out I didn't notify anybody about this, though, leading to them attempting to merge some of my improvements. However, instead of clarifying what exactly isn't done yet, or my plans for it, I simply undo an issue closure and say "This is not complete. Check this link." Okay, so will it be complete in the future? Where exactly does the issue stand? Why is this the first time I'm talking to the company after 2 weeks?

I hope that helps you understand. I won't reply further to this discussion, as I don't want to entirely derail the thread. I think taking a holistic view makes the vagueness pretty clear.

[athenian200]

Off-topic:
Now I feel bad after reading those links having voiced support for this excursion. Sorry @athenian200 - you had good reason to be pissed off, I guess.

Off-topic:
Don't worry, it's all good. I understood where you were coming from. My original plan was to avoid sharing that fact with everyone because I worried it would cast Basilisk-Dev and wuigi in a bad light, turn the community against them, and cement the break in collaboration. Chose to instead just kind of gloss over that part. But I did know about that when I posted, so it was on my mind admittedly. I wasn't lying when I said I wanted them to stay... Basilisk-Dev in particular does good work and we don't have a lot of developers here to begin with. wuigi has made some promising first commits as well. So it's a bit sad to see a fork like that if it means they're going away. I'm still hoping this is a misunderstanding and they do still intend to collaborate, especially since Basilisk-Dev reopened the issues he knew were unfinished. This project does have a history of hostile forks that start working against us, so maybe we took this the wrong way and it really is just a playground for e10s and WebExtensions, or a plan to attract outside contributors who don't feel comfortable working with us directly into writing UXP code that can then be upstreamed. There are other explanations than what it "looks like," but when we first saw it the other night, I have to admit we didn't take it well. And I may have made the whole thing worse for MC because I wondered if the fork may have been due to Basilisk-Dev being frustrated with the slow pace of PR merging or something, and Moonchild seemingly merged everything from eUXP he thought was useful in an exasperated rush... some of which was apparently unfinished. Whole situation has just been... tense.

[Basilisk-Dev]

Off-topic:

I hope that helps you understand. I won't reply further to this discussion, as I don't want to entirely derail the thread. I think taking a holistic view makes the vagueness pretty clear.

I do not understand. I provided clear information regarding why the work was incomplete including an example. Nothing vague about that.

[Basilisk-Dev]

Off-topic:
I'm going to continue contributing to UXP. Let's pivot back to the original topic of "Why is Pale Moon so slow?" and solutions to that problem, forks of UXP are irrelevant to that subject.

[BenFenner]

Off-topic:

I can think of 3 Web Extensions that I would use on Pale Moon.

I can think of one or two... But it's not like they couldn't be UXP extensions.

DeArrow and to a lesser extent SponsorBlock.

But I am certainly fine living without them and would never suggest a WebExtension layer be added to Pale Moon if if caused even the tiniest bit of pain.

[Moonchild]

Please direct any further discussion about UXP forks, feature support on the platform and various directions of development to the Platform Development board.