[Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by moonbat » 2022-04-11, 23:47

mr tribute wrote:
2022-04-11, 23:23
Sometimes I log in as root/admin (this seems to be common practice on Windows), but please don't tell anyone because the root account on Linux is said to be super dangerous.
I just always have a terminal window logged on with su, if there's anything I need to run as root I can do it directly without using sudo. And if you want to run a GUI app as root, type the app name followed by & so it launches in the background. For example, if your file manager is Nautilus you would type

Code: Select all

root@localhost:~# nautilus &
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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by Baloo » 2022-04-12, 02:21

Logging in as root is dumb in Linux. There is a reason why it is not the case. You can easily delete key files or symlinks. I know I've done it before trying to install software that was not in the repos.
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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by moonbat » 2022-04-12, 02:33

Baloo wrote:
2022-04-12, 02:21
Logging in as root is dumb in Linux.
Just realized this was about logging onto not the terminal but the desktop itself as a root user :shock:
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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by ron_1 » 2022-04-12, 03:40

Logging in as root is unadvisable.
Off-topic:
For some reason, my spell checker flagged unadvisable even though it's a word.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unadvisable

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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by Pause » 2022-04-12, 10:07

ron_1 wrote:
2022-04-12, 03:40
Logging in as root is unadvisable.
Off-topic:
For some reason, my spell checker flagged unadvisable even though it's a word.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unadvisable
Off-topic:
I believe you actually meant inadvisable in that context, which I'd assume to be the most common intent.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inadvisable

Unadvisable, given the meaning stated in your link, is what I'd guess would be said by someone in the legal profession about a (former/potential/current) client if it was said at all.

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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by Moonraker » 2022-04-12, 11:32

Baloo wrote:
2022-04-12, 02:21
Logging in as root is dumb in Linux. There is a reason why it is not the case. You can easily delete key files or symlinks. I know I've done it before trying to install software that was not in the repos.
Absolute nonsense and the sudo command is a complete joke.I have used several flavours of puppy linux which runs as root as standard and i have NEVER been compromised or deleted an important system file.

if the linux user has no idea what files are for they can delete them whether they use the silly sudo command or not.
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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by andyprough » 2022-04-12, 12:27

Moonraker wrote:
2022-04-12, 11:32
Absolute nonsense and the sudo command is a complete joke.I have used several flavours of puppy linux which runs as root as standard and i have NEVER been compromised or deleted an important system file.

if the linux user has no idea what files are for they can delete them whether they use the silly sudo command or not.
It's important to note that Puppy has a completely different security setup than most other versions of desktop Linux. Not only is it built as a single user system, but it's also built with a layered file system (I believe it's still using aufs) that has the ability to keep all but recently changed system files as parts of read-only layers which are constantly backed up and available for re-deployment in the event of file corruption. These are huge advantages in terms of security and stability over "normal" desktop linux systems like Ubuntu.

I wouldn't advise that the average uninformed Ubuntu user run their desktop as root for a variety of reasons. I've seen what goes on in the Ubuntu forums - I've seen Ubuntu users trying to force commands that they learned in Windows to run on the terminal in Ubuntu. I've seen them try to add completely unrelated and incompatible repos and update from them. I've seen where they've downloaded and run huge amounts of pirated video games and movies without any taking any security precautions, thinking "I'm on Linux so I'm safe from every threat automatically".

[note - I'm not in any way a Puppy expert like Moonraker, but these are some of the things I've come to understand about the Puppy way. If I'm wrong about any of the above I'm sure I will get corrected and that people will ultimately get over themselves :coffee: ]

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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by Moonraker » 2022-04-12, 12:39

@andyprough
Woah hoss hold your horses..me a puppy expert.?!!..I am far from it but i have extensively read up on puppy via the forum and i am merely a beginner but the security model seems sound to me.

The SUDO command is not going to stop a wreckless user trashing his system and with one password he can brick a computer the same a root puppy user can and that is why the sudo is a joke.

In puppyland we use savefile/folders which retain out configs etc and it is usually prudent to make a backup of the savefile.If one makes a mistake and the system breaks then it is not an issue as a backup can be restored in minutes.
Any malware which finds itself on to a puppy system can be eliminated by simply deleting the savefolder and restoring a backup.

It really is a linux distro worth checking out. :thumbup:
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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by __NM64__ » 2022-04-12, 19:54

mr tribute wrote:
2022-04-11, 23:23
As someone who dislikes the terminal I have yet to find a file manager that manages recursive permissions (even in root mode). So permissions tend to involve terminal or copy to NTFS to clean Linux permissions.
So as you know, I'm definitely a Linux beginner, but interestingly I think Nemo may do what you want?

I just know that, after downloading some stuff overnight on my derpy "server" (it's just an old copy of Mint 18.x on an old underclocked & undervolted PC running passively because my internet speed isn't that great), all of which is always downloaded to the ~/Downloads folder, if I right-click on Downloads and set the read-write permissions to, well, read & write for that folder, then any of the files and/or folders I just downloaded will get this applied as it's my go-to solution to then be able to modify and/or delete folders over a network folder share from Windows PC.

That being said, if I copy over the network a file from a Windows PC, then I need to set the permission via root instead if I want to be able to modify it from the "server" directly, and it's possible that this may not work recursively but don't quote me on this.

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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by moonbat » 2022-04-13, 03:57

Moonraker wrote:
2022-04-12, 11:32
if the linux user has no idea what files are for they can delete them whether they use the silly sudo command or not.
Only files that they own. A non root luser can fuck up their own environment without affecting the rest of the system as compared to one running as root
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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-04-13, 11:16

moonbat wrote:
2022-04-13, 03:57
Only files that they own. A non root luser can fuck up their own environment without affecting the rest of the system as compared to one running as root
In theory, yes. In practice, not so much. Many distros allow a non-privileged user to touch and mess with parts of the filesystem and configuration that does break things. Difficult perhaps, but not impossible. And before you state SELinux as a cure-all, no, it isn't :D
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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by moonbat » 2022-04-13, 14:52

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, after all. I don't hold with the current trend everywhere of mollycoddling users to protect them from their own mistakes by dumbing down everything either.
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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by mr tribute » 2022-04-13, 20:43

Off-topic:
moonbat wrote:
2022-04-11, 23:47
I just always have a terminal window logged on with su, if there's anything I need to run as root I can do it directly without using sudo. And if you want to run a GUI app as root, type the app name followed by & so it launches in the background. For example, if your file manager is Nautilus you would type

Code: Select all

root@localhost:~# nautilus &
This is actually very useful. I tend to create root launchers, but if you hop between distros this quickly becomes tedious. Thanks, I will use this method.
__NM64__ wrote:
2022-04-12, 19:54
So as you know, I'm definitely a Linux beginner, but interestingly I think Nemo may do what you want?
Maybe, the Mint team does apply some quality to the parts that interest them. I always thought Nemo was too ugly for consideration, but yeah, that is a very subjective statement. I'm too lazy to install it and it's gtk and sooner rather than later I have to leave gtk apps behind. Well, most Linux browsers have gtk integration so I can't leave everything gtk related.
Moonchild wrote:
2022-04-13, 11:16
In theory, yes. In practice, not so much. Many distros allow a non-privileged user to touch and mess with parts of the filesystem and configuration that does break things. Difficult perhaps, but not impossible. And before you state SELinux as a cure-all, no, it isn't
AppArmor and SELinux focus on application sandboxing so a separate can of worms. You can isolate a user to their home directory just by using ordinary permissions, but yes - Linux distros don't do this. Then a user can run binaries from their home directory and already installed applications (unless SELinux is applied). As soon as you give a user sudo everything is lost. Then they can change root password etc.

An isolated user can mess up their own account. Then they have to ask the admin (which might be themselves) to log in and create a new account for them. If we are dealing with schools/libraries etc. then I'm sure it's possible to create disposable guest accounts that recreate themselves every login.

Sudo or equivalents do exist on Windows, but aren't used. That's why Windows home users use the root account. I think macOS has taken sECu3itY to a new level by mounting the system partition as read-only (maybe with an overlay filesystem for changes). Then only Apple is root.

The way I see it many differences between Linux and Windows are just "implementation details" except that the NT kernel is better suited for a desktop system because of easier patching (drivers etc.). There is something to be said about the fact that when a Linux kernel patch is applied, a whole new kernel is installed. That being said, I'm sure the NT kernel has other shortcomings. Being proprietary is one.

SELinux is a complicated beast (It was written by NSA).
Traditionally, Linux and UNIX systems have used DAC. SELinux is an example of a MAC system for Linux.
With DAC, files and processes have owners. You can have the user own a file, a group own a file, or other, which can be anyone else. Users have the ability to change permissions on their own files.
The root user has full access control with a DAC system. If you have root access, then you can access any other user’s files or do whatever you want on the system.

But on MAC systems like SELinux, there is administratively set policy around access. Even if the DAC settings on your home directory are changed, an SELinux policy in place to prevent another user or process from accessing the directory will keep the system safe.
SELinux policies let you be specific and cover a large number of processes. You can make changes with SELinux to limit access between users, files, directories, and more.
https://www.redhat.com/en/topics/linux/what-is-selinux

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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by moonbat » 2022-04-14, 00:08

mr tribute wrote:
2022-04-13, 20:43
I always thought Nemo was too ugly for consideration, but yeah, that is a very subjective statement. I'm too lazy to install it and it's gtk and sooner rather than later I have to leave gtk apps behind.
I use Mint XFCE edition, the default Thunar file manager is pretty lightweight but too basic so I use MATE's Caja insteaad.
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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by mr tribute » 2022-05-11, 22:31

Off-topic:
moonbat wrote:
2022-04-14, 00:08
I use Mint XFCE edition, the default Thunar file manager is pretty lightweight but too basic so I use MATE's Caja insteaad.
I use Xfce too despite it being rather buggy if one is a little picky about bugs. MATE is a little better in that regard so Caja has been my go-to file manager forever.
__NM64__ wrote:
2022-04-12, 19:54
... but interestingly I think Nemo may do what you want?
I'm thankful you mentioned Nemo, because that made me install it. It does recursive permissions correctly. Other file managers like Thunar, Caja, SpaceFM, PCmanFM, PCManFM-Qt do not. It's possible Dolphin in KDE can do it, but I don't want to install KDE to find out. I wish "everyday GUI tools" were a little more polished on Linux, but I guess the money isn't there. The question is always; are we getting closer or further away from what we want? I guess Windows users can ask themselves the same thing. A constant struggle it is...

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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by stevenpusser » 2022-05-11, 22:40

Anyway, I'm getting the source to 31 right now via the git commands, and will try some experimental builds tonight. Hopefully, the build problems I had with the previous 30.xx "release" were due to the other problems with the release, and I won't see them now.

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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by __NM64__ » 2022-05-11, 22:42

So that "Update Alert" extension seems to be working thus far in that I have it configured to notify me of when the release notes webpage gets updated and, sure enough, I got notified of version 31's release notes.

Also I'm the kind of person that actually likes reading through release notes, so this is a nice convenient way to do that too (with Pale Moon's internal update notifier, I also would read the release notes first when it popped up but then would typically put off installing the actual update until I'm no longer in the middle of anything).

Of course, Steve Pusser's builds are a little behind the official tarball so this does mean I have to wait a couple days before updating, but I'm really not that concerned about that since I've already established that I'm not super-concerned about getting immediate updates (otherwise I'd be using the tarball set to automatic updates :P).

Off-topic:
mr tribute wrote:
2022-05-11, 22:31
I'm thankful you mentioned Nemo, because that made me install it. It does recursive permissions correctly.
Good to know! Now if only Nemo were as performant as Thunar as the latency/"input lag" in Nemo is honestly my only real big annoyance with it - and it's a big one for me coming from a configuration where, on Windows, opening a folder is extremely instant (more details in this Linux Mint forum thread, though I've still not yet properly timed/recorded how Thunar performs by comparison other than being able to visually tell that it's definitely faster)...though we seem to be on the cusp of some pretty consistently-major single-threaded CPU performance gains from both AMD and Intel; heck maybe as soon as Zen5 and/or Meteor Lake we can just "brute-force" the solution if not by Zen6 and/or Intel's "Royal Core"?

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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by nero355 » 2022-05-24, 13:26

Weird that no one has mentioned these two, but here it goes :
- KDE has Discover to notify you about updates and it works just fine here with the Steve Pusser Repository ;)
- GNOME has something like GNOME Software or Software Center that does the same thing.

I think other Desktop Environments have similar stuff too ?!

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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by BenFenner » 2022-05-24, 13:45

Yep, Linux Mint has the "Update Manager" which lets me know when there's a new version of Pale Moon (using Steve's builds) available.

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Re: [Debian/Ubuntu] Any way to notify of browser updates when using Steve Pusser's Pale Moon builds?

Unread post by __NM64__ » 2022-05-24, 19:15

BenFenner wrote:
2022-05-24, 13:45
Yep, Linux Mint has the "Update Manager" which lets me know when there's a new version of Pale Moon (using Steve's builds) available.
My main issue is that Linux Mint's "Update Manager" doesn't have a way to notify about specific updates and instead just notifies you about all updates.

...and I don't like being notified about updates in general, with Pale Moon being one of the few exception.

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