Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Users and developers helping users with generic and technical Pale Moon issues on all operating systems.

Moderator: trava90

Forum rules
This board is for technical/general usage questions and troubleshooting for the Pale Moon browser only.
Technical issues and questions not related to the Pale Moon browser should be posted in other boards!
Please keep off-topic and general discussion out of this board, thank you!
User avatar
Pallid Planetoid
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 4279
Joined: 2015-10-06, 16:59
Location: Los Angeles CA USA

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by Pallid Planetoid » 2022-04-12, 13:26

The K-Meleon browser has been running on the Goanna engine for sometime now - on beta since Nov 2017 version 76.

Current release notes: http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.ph ... msg-156043
notice in the notes: added - "Bug 1181555 - Add 'experimental-webcomponents' permission. r=fabrice (204680f324)".
Current Pale Moon(x86) Release | WIN10 | I5 CPU, 1.7 GHz, 6GB RAM, 500GB HD[20GB SSD]
Formerly user Pale Moon Rising - to provide context involving embedded reply threads.
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers
Knowing Pale Moon is indisputably #1 is defined by knowing the totality of browsers. - Pale Moon Rising

User avatar
Indigoprophet
Moongazer
Moongazer
Posts: 11
Joined: 2022-04-01, 14:10

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by Indigoprophet » 2022-04-12, 15:08

Blacklab wrote:
2022-04-11, 12:32
Even if you explain what is being done to them (filter bubbling, attention hijacking, pushing more extreme material to keep user eye-time on a website, etc.) and then what is being done with all their 'stolen' data (tracking, profiling, surveillance society, surveillance capitalism, etc.)... they still don't care.
Totally wrong. Most of them do. The problem is they have been intentionally blunted for years so that they couldn't understand the meaning of these actions even if they hit them on the head. Bluntness is a lethal weapon which nothing can be put up against, even heroism. This is exactly what Mr. Snowden did - he just went out and said: you're being tracked. And people did rise against it. And that's where bluntness came to the stage - american authorities invented a brilliant evasion for themselves. They said: "Oh, we didn't collect your phone calls, we just collected the metadata". And people answered: "Oh, it's just some metadata, why bother?". But as Bruce Schneier said in his "Data and Goliath", metadata can tell almost everything about you, so they should have bothered most seriously. I highly recommend this book if you want to get a deep understanding of privacy problems.

So how can you challenge bluntness? There's only one way - education. In order to make people rise and fight back, you need to arm them with knowledge of danger which threatens them. Because if they don't see the danger in something, why would they fight it?
I was thinking about the statement "The main weapon of Google in this war". Edge and Brave must be causing some heartburn at Google HQ, as those browsers use Google's own engine to steal users from Chrome and try to push people onto the Bing and Brave default search engines to siphon off the search revenue.
People, wake up and get to the root. All browsers switching to Google's engine is Google's greatest victory.

Google makes its money by selling user data, right? At this moment much of this data comes from Google search engine, but Google wouldn't care if it came from any other source. So if Google conquers the whole browser market, it can actually abandon its search engine the very next day, because all data they would ever need will come to them straight from users' browsers. And it's much more data than they have now, because it includes all of users' internet surfing. And so called privacy browsers based on Chromium are not going to save you, because Google can insert privacy-breaking code into Chromium at any moment. And no browser developer in the world is going to look through each and every commit into Chromium code checking whether it breaks privacy, because it's crazy. Firefox is open source and still it was caught in the act with code that sent data to Google in some way. They said that time that it was a "bug". Actually it's not a big surprise considering that Google is paying Mozilla. Lucky strike, that time they were caught, some other time they wouldn't be.
The best hope IMHO is that the lawmakers slowly catch-up with the mega-internet companies and enforce competition, anti-trust law, and privacy laws such as GDPR within the EU.
The sad thing about mega companies (not only internet ones) is that they are very skillful at bribing these lawmakers and any other authorities that stand in their way. And these bribes don't even have to be illegal. So the only true power is not authorities, but mass awareness. Because you can always find a way to bribe some officials if you're crafty, but there's no way you can bribe everybody when everybody's aware, cause it contradicts your purpose of making money.

And these are more reasons why we must execute this plan. So are we going any further than a chit-chat?

User avatar
andyprough
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 698
Joined: 2020-05-31, 04:33

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by andyprough » 2022-04-12, 15:30

Indigoprophet wrote:
2022-04-12, 15:08
Google makes its money by selling user data, right?
Google is the world's largest advertising company. The sale of all your user data is just a small side business for them. If they lose the same 9% of ad revenues that they've lost in browser market share the past 3 years, Wall Street will punish them ruthlessly.

User avatar
Pallid Planetoid
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 4279
Joined: 2015-10-06, 16:59
Location: Los Angeles CA USA

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by Pallid Planetoid » 2022-04-12, 16:11

I find that corporate enterprises are so obsessed with being Chrome browser centric that they will even quite often overlook whether there website is compatible with the other non-chrome browsers they are expected to support (most specifically, I often find that they tend to be dismissive about checking on Firefox compatibility).

What is often the case is what is not working on Pale Moon will in many cases not be working on Firefox either --- yet the problem will if course not be the case with Chrome. So clearly in these cases their primary concern or attention is for the most part whether their website works on Chrome.

Case in point just today - USBank has a current bug now (for the past 10 days) where the login will always require a "Security Question" be answered for every login. This issue occurs with both Pale Moon and Firefox, but of course does not with Chrome - and of course since Firefox is a browser the banks supports they are forced to address the problem (which after reporting the issue they most assuredly will) -- but of course, as we know would not likely be addressed if the issue was specific to only Pale Moon).

This paramount obsession businesses have with Chrome compatibility predominates the web supported by the fact that in many cases the Chrome browser will very often be the only Windows browser that does not have a specific issue that either Firefox or Pale Moon will. Businesses will invariably ask "are you using Chrome" and I will invariably say "if you knew more about Chrome (re: privacy etc) you wouldn't use it - but no, the problem's on Firefox..." (just to get them to fix the issue). I used to always bring up Pale Moon but because it's generally so difficult getting across the message they need to support more browsers, I'm sorry to say I increasingly find myself not bothering in order to get the issue fixed as expeditiously as possible.
Current Pale Moon(x86) Release | WIN10 | I5 CPU, 1.7 GHz, 6GB RAM, 500GB HD[20GB SSD]
Formerly user Pale Moon Rising - to provide context involving embedded reply threads.
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers
Knowing Pale Moon is indisputably #1 is defined by knowing the totality of browsers. - Pale Moon Rising

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35473
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-04-12, 16:34

Indigoprophet wrote:
2022-04-12, 15:08
Google makes its money by selling user data, right? At this moment much of this data comes from Google search engine, but Google wouldn't care if it came from any other source. So if Google conquers the whole browser market, it can actually abandon its search engine the very next day, because all data they would ever need will come to them straight from users' browsers.
I'm sorry but you are very wrong. Data collection happens through Chrome by design, but other browsers may still be using the Chromium engine without data reporting.
I think what the long-term issue is is something else entirely: If Google can push its exclusive technology that benefits advertising technologies by controlling the browser market, and makes it inexplicably tied to requirements for "the modern web", then and only then do they have the full advantage. Profiling and data collection isn't their bread and butter; advertising is. Profiling only assists that advertising with personalised/targeted ads. This is the long game.

Now what technologies should you look out for?
  • Shadow DOM: Allows scripts to run inside web pages with one-way data flow. The scripts in Shadow DOM can access the embedding page but not the other way around (hence the name). It will not be visible through normal observation of the page structure. This allows "black box" advertising and other scripts to be run in pages. The initial spec didn't allow this "hiding" of scripts, but the current spec does.
  • UDP-based web delivery. UDP is stateless and is a lot harder to filter and easier to spoof. There are a plethora of ways this can be used to fake origins of content and as such make it many times more difficult to recognize ad sources.
  • WebPack: I hope this never becomes a thing. It delivers pages and content in a single "packet" -- this will effectively kill adblocking because adblockers will not be able to distinguish genuine content from ads.
There will likely be extensive campaigns advertising the potential "benefits" of these technologies like faster web content delivery or what not; just keep the negatives in mind too.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

User avatar
andyprough
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 698
Joined: 2020-05-31, 04:33

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by andyprough » 2022-04-12, 16:40

Pallid Planetoid wrote:
2022-04-12, 16:11
Case in point just today - USBank has a current bug now (for the past 10 days) where the login will always require a "Security Question" be answered for every login. This issue occurs with both Pale Moon and Firefox, but of course does not with Chrome
The Chrome user forum has 6 complaints on problems with USBank's website with over 1,000 upvotes over the past three years, with 5 of them focusing on inability to log-in or to open the site. These screwed-up websites cause trouble for users of Chrome-based browsers too. Bad website devs simply are bad at their jobs and screw it up for everyone, they often aren't selecting Pale Moon or Firefox out for particular abuse.

User avatar
Pallid Planetoid
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 4279
Joined: 2015-10-06, 16:59
Location: Los Angeles CA USA

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by Pallid Planetoid » 2022-04-12, 17:09

andyprough wrote:
2022-04-12, 16:40
Pallid Planetoid wrote:
2022-04-12, 16:11
Case in point just today - USBank has a current bug now (for the past 10 days) where the login will always require a "Security Question" be answered for every login. This issue occurs with both Pale Moon and Firefox, but of course does not with Chrome
The Chrome user forum has 6 complaints on problems with USBank's website with over 1,000 upvotes over the past three years, with 5 of them focusing on inability to log-in or to open the site. These screwed-up websites cause trouble for users of Chrome-based browsers too. Bad website devs simply are bad at their jobs and screw it up for everyone, they often aren't selecting Pale Moon or Firefox out for particular abuse.
I wouldn't characterize it as "particular abuse" (as you put it) that is necessarily intentional toward any one browser but rather I'm suggesting there is perhaps a more dismissive (lackadaisical) attitude or approach that prevails toward non-Chrome browsers based on the predominance (re: user-base) that Chrome has attained among browsers (hence devs may intrinsically place a greater focus on Chrome).
Last edited by Pallid Planetoid on 2022-04-12, 17:18, edited 1 time in total.
Current Pale Moon(x86) Release | WIN10 | I5 CPU, 1.7 GHz, 6GB RAM, 500GB HD[20GB SSD]
Formerly user Pale Moon Rising - to provide context involving embedded reply threads.
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers
Knowing Pale Moon is indisputably #1 is defined by knowing the totality of browsers. - Pale Moon Rising

User avatar
andyprough
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 698
Joined: 2020-05-31, 04:33

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by andyprough » 2022-04-12, 17:17

Pallid Planetoid wrote:
2022-04-12, 17:09
I wouldn't characterize it as "particular abuse" (as you put it) toward any one browser but rather I'm suggesting there is perhaps a more dismissive (lackadaisical) attitude or approach that prevails toward non-Chrome browsers based on the predominance (re: user-base) that Chrome has attained among browsers (hence devs may place a greater focus on Chrome).
And yet, Chrome users have the same kinds of complaints about the USBank website in far greater numbers. Perhaps the USBank web devs are simply not good at their jobs? I think you are right that the Chrome issues might get fixed by USBank with a greater sense of urgency, but I don't have any evidence on that one way or the other.

User avatar
Pallid Planetoid
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 4279
Joined: 2015-10-06, 16:59
Location: Los Angeles CA USA

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by Pallid Planetoid » 2022-04-12, 17:25

andyprough wrote:
2022-04-12, 17:17
... And yet, Chrome users have the same kinds of complaints about the USBank website in far greater numbers....
But then are you taking into account the "far greater numbers" of "Chrome users" complaints (in regards to USBank) would necessarily be a reflection of the greater number of Chrome users (as compared to users of non-Chrome browsers)? (Browser A w/ 100k users will have more complaints than Browser B w/ 10K users - probably by ~10X's).

Addendum:
If you think about it - it's such a simple thing to test software changes for each of the very few browsers companies generally support - it's mind boggling why such fundamental things as a login would be a problem on one browser and not another when we're basically talking about only 3 browsers that are commonly supported for Windows. I venture to guess that there will generally be less problems on Chrome than any of the other supported browsers - so I can't see how it's not some level of inattention to non-Chrome browsers of which in my view there is really no excuse (considering the small number of browsers that most businesses are committed to supporting).

I don't see how the devs can be that lazy and still get paid!!... (I would have lost my job back-in-the-day if I had to only test for just 3 conditions [number of supported browsers in this case], that serve a very large number of customers, and failed to do so. :crazy:)
Current Pale Moon(x86) Release | WIN10 | I5 CPU, 1.7 GHz, 6GB RAM, 500GB HD[20GB SSD]
Formerly user Pale Moon Rising - to provide context involving embedded reply threads.
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers
Knowing Pale Moon is indisputably #1 is defined by knowing the totality of browsers. - Pale Moon Rising

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35473
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-04-12, 19:06

Pallid Planetoid wrote:
2022-04-12, 17:25
I don't see how the devs can be that lazy and still get paid!!...
  • Most web design work is outsourced.
  • Outsourced work thrives on repeat business.
  • Repeat business is ensured by only supporting the "latest and latest -1" version of a short list of "mainstream browsers" and making sure to target the latest new additions to it, to justify the busy work.
  • A fast release cycle falls in line with Agile development where one MUST show progress every 2 weeks even if it is destructive towards standards use.
  • "It works and works well" is ignored every time as a result in favour of change for the sake of change (labelled by any of a dozen different labels meaning the exact same)
Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of these points. I think it's a pretty clear picture.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

User avatar
ron_1
Moon Magic practitioner
Moon Magic practitioner
Posts: 2852
Joined: 2012-06-28, 01:20

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by ron_1 » 2022-04-12, 20:10

This talk about the US Bank website today is ironic . . . I was just on their website this morning with Chromium (my newest secondary browser; may go back to Vivaldi), and I couldn't believe just how slow it was loading. They need to fire their web devs.

User avatar
Pallid Planetoid
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 4279
Joined: 2015-10-06, 16:59
Location: Los Angeles CA USA

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by Pallid Planetoid » 2022-04-12, 20:35

Moonchild wrote:
2022-04-12, 19:06
Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of these points. I think it's a pretty clear picture.
Can't say your wrong and would agree it's a pretty clear picture.... that said, it's also a pretty clear picture that companies that are outsourcing this kind of stuff would appear to be wasting a lot of money not to mention in many cases doing very little in the way of doing much for their customers.

Once again case in point, USBank broke their "Pay Bills" page by using a floating a payment verification banner at the bottom of the page that didn't work and that remained broken in Pale Moon for about 7 months before finally getting the floating banner to work around the end of November last year. Once it worked it was actually a very nice feature that provided a method of verifying payments that was at all times accessible (considering it floated on the page) that was relatively unique as "Pay Bill" pages go only to recently announce they are soon to abandon this approach in favor of, once again, using the commonly practiced approach of rendering "Verify" buttons at the bottom and top of the page that needs to be scrolled to as opposed to always being readily available (as a floating banner). So they finally fix something that was broken for 7 months that once fixed was actually a nice unique convenient feature only to abandon that feature after about 5 months to return to the less convenient common button approach once again (that may very well be broken for a few month before they get it right).

The "classic" example above is exemplary of the (last) bullet point #5 previously posted:
  • "It works and works well" is ignored every time as a result in favour of change for the sake of change
They'd be better off saving their money and not "outsource" frequent website changes for the sake of "repeat business" in order to "justify busy work" just to feel like they're "keeping up with latest" when in fact they are frequently not and at the same time they're very often negatively impacting their business in significant ways by messing things up most of the time as a result.

Hey Moonchild - any comments on my post at the top of the page regarding K-Meleon that's been using the Goanna engine for some time (specifically the reference to "experimental-webcomponents' permission" [point #8 on the list of changes] in the latest release):
Current release notes: http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.ph ... msg-156043
notice in the notes: added - "Bug 1181555 - Add 'experimental-webcomponents' permission. r=fabrice (204680f324)".
Current Pale Moon(x86) Release | WIN10 | I5 CPU, 1.7 GHz, 6GB RAM, 500GB HD[20GB SSD]
Formerly user Pale Moon Rising - to provide context involving embedded reply threads.
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers
Knowing Pale Moon is indisputably #1 is defined by knowing the totality of browsers. - Pale Moon Rising

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35473
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-04-13, 01:57

Pallid Planetoid wrote:
2022-04-12, 20:35
Hey Moonchild - any comments on my post at the top of the page regarding K-Meleon
No comment. Primarily because it's impossible to see what bugtracker they are referring to.
In addition KMeleon builds on Goanna 3.5 - that's really old.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

Lurker_01
Fanatic
Fanatic
Posts: 122
Joined: 2015-06-12, 14:59
Location: Uruguay

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by Lurker_01 » 2022-04-13, 20:13

Off-topic:
Pallid Planetoid wrote:
2022-04-12, 20:35
Current release notes: http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.ph ... msg-156043
notice in the notes: added - "Bug 1181555 - Add 'experimental-webcomponents' permission. r=fabrice (204680f324)".
The bugs refer to firefox bugs, bug #1181555, also of note that not everything in the change-log is actually applied to the development branch as i understand.
for this particular one based on git history, the actual porting happens at rmottola/Arctic-Fox.

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35473
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-04-13, 21:53

Off-topic:
Not sure in what way that would apply to us. We don't use "apps" on firefox OS :P
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

User avatar
Lexx Diamond
Moonbather
Moonbather
Posts: 71
Joined: 2017-02-16, 18:26

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by Lexx Diamond » 2022-04-16, 05:23

Instagram resolved the issue on their end. I see IG posts fine now.
Image

User avatar
nord1
Moonbather
Moonbather
Posts: 59
Joined: 2018-01-24, 00:18

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by nord1 » 2022-04-18, 15:12

PaleMoon works as default browser, but when it chokes, Open With gives me Vivaldi and Open in gives me Waterfox. This usually gives me the ability to go around web sites that don't allow Palemoon to work.

Just sayin'

Nick
-N-
Framework, Windows 11 Pro, Basilisk, Panda Dome, MalwareBytesPremium, Scotty is On Patrol

User avatar
Pallid Planetoid
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 4279
Joined: 2015-10-06, 16:59
Location: Los Angeles CA USA

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by Pallid Planetoid » 2022-04-18, 15:35

What is "Open in"?

Have a link to the add-on?
Current Pale Moon(x86) Release | WIN10 | I5 CPU, 1.7 GHz, 6GB RAM, 500GB HD[20GB SSD]
Formerly user Pale Moon Rising - to provide context involving embedded reply threads.
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers
Knowing Pale Moon is indisputably #1 is defined by knowing the totality of browsers. - Pale Moon Rising

coffeebreak
Moon Magic practitioner
Moon Magic practitioner
Posts: 2986
Joined: 2015-09-26, 04:51
Location: U.S.

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by coffeebreak » 2022-04-18, 19:14

Pallid Planetoid wrote:
2022-04-18, 15:35
"Open in"?
At a guess, one or combination of these...
caa-openin.png

I personally prefer Geoff Lankow's Open With that's available from CAA [ caa:addon/open-with ] or GitHub.
(I use v6.8.5, caa:addon/open-with/versions).

User avatar
Pallid Planetoid
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 4279
Joined: 2015-10-06, 16:59
Location: Los Angeles CA USA

Re: Important sites disfunctional on PaleMoon

Unread post by Pallid Planetoid » 2022-04-18, 19:59

^ I've used that Classic Archive add-on v6.8.5 myself in the past and liked it just fine.

I'm currently using the Pale Moon add-on "Open With Edge, IE, Chrome, and More" that does essentially the same thing as the "Open With" Classic Archive add-on: https://addons.palemoon.org/addon/openwithieedge/.
Screen-shot:
Accomplishes virtually the same thing as what the "Open With" classic archives add-on does.
Accomplishes virtually the same thing as what the "Open With" classic archives add-on does.
Some values are preset in the Pale Moon "Open With..." add-on - but you can change them to whatever you want so your not bound to what defaults the add-on comes with - you do have to be careful to leave the "Open With" text menu values as they are (you can of course change the reference to the applicable browser in the menu setting options that is being linked to in the exe file path). I tried changing the "W" in the menu setting value phrase "Open With" to lower-case and got into trouble requiring the removal of all "Openwith" pref settings in about:config and re-installing the add-on. It does a good job - either add-on gets the job done actually (which, in either case, facilitates the use of a browser of choice that can handle webpages that may have current problems fully rendering in Pale Moon).
Current Pale Moon(x86) Release | WIN10 | I5 CPU, 1.7 GHz, 6GB RAM, 500GB HD[20GB SSD]
Formerly user Pale Moon Rising - to provide context involving embedded reply threads.
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers
Knowing Pale Moon is indisputably #1 is defined by knowing the totality of browsers. - Pale Moon Rising

Locked