Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops Topic is solved

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adem0x

Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops

Unread post by adem0x » 2017-11-10, 08:33

I have tested startup times for Pale Moon on these 3 devices.

Other than these details below, they are basically identical (Win 10 Ent, 64bit; all updated to the latest drivers etc.)

Laptop: Lenovo X1 Yoga 2nd Gen
CPU: i7-7600U, 4MB Cache, 3.90GHz
GPU: Intel HD Graphics 620
RAM: 16GB LPDDR3 1866 MHz
Storage: 512GB PCIe SSD

Laptop: Lenovo P71
CPU: Intel Xeon E3-1535 v6 Processor, 8MB Cache, 4.20GHz
GPU: NVIDIA Quadro P4000 [selected as primary]
GPU: Intel HD Graphics P630
RAM: 64GB, ECC, DDR4-2400
Storage: 512GB PCIe SSD [boot]

Laptop: Asus Rampage V Edition 10
CPU: Intel Core i7-6900K, 20 MB Cache, 3.8 GHz
GPU: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1070
RAM: 64GB, DDR4-2133
Storage: 512GB PCIe SSD [boot]

As I don't have any means (I don't know of an app) to precisely measure the time an app takes to get to ready state, I have used a manual chronograph.

And, the results are:

Pale Moon: Both laptops take about 20 seconds. The desktop box takes about 4 seconds.

Chrome: On all machines, Chrome is basically instantaneous.

Firefox and Waterfox: On all machines, take about 2-3 seconds

Admittedly, I use add-ons only with Pale Moon; so it is understandable that it takes a little longer to start up.

But, Pale Moon has identical add-ons on the 3 machines; yet the laptops take 4 times longer.

Could someone explain why this might be so; and, preferably, what I can do about it.

dark_moon

Re: Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops

Unread post by dark_moon » 2017-11-10, 08:48

Welcome to the forum!

20 seconds is definitively to long for that powerful hardware.
On my system with much lower and older hardware Pale Moon open in 1-2 seconds, even with many addons.

How long is the start time if you start a fresh Pale Moon without addons?

adem0x

Re: Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops

Unread post by adem0x » 2017-11-10, 12:43

Welcome to the forum!
Thank you.
20 seconds is definitively to long for that powerful hardware.
It sure is. I am trying to figure out why, but have come up with nothing meaningful so far.
How long is the start time if you start a fresh Pale Moon without addons?
Using the ' -safe-mode' commandline switch, Pale Moon comes up immediately.

So, it must be one of these addons that doesn't like Thinkpads.
  • ABPrime
    Add to Search Bar
    AutoProxy
    CuteButtons
    Developer Tools
    Download Tab
    Expose Noisy Tabs
    Image Zoom
    Link Alert
    Linkification
    Menu Icons Plus
    NoScript
    NoUn Buttons
    Paste and Go 3 Again
    PicBlow
    Remove It Permanently
    Save Images (Moon Edition)
    Stylish
    Tab Mix Plus
    Theme Font & Size Changer
    Toolbar Buttons
Personally, I can't single out any one --especially since they behave quite normally on the desktop machine.

dark_moon

Re: Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops

Unread post by dark_moon » 2017-11-10, 13:41

Then yes, one of your addons make problems.
Disable one by one. Maybe start with ABPrime

adem0x

Re: Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops

Unread post by adem0x » 2017-11-10, 14:37

Disable one by one.


I was hoping it wouldn't come to that.

But, luckily
Maybe start with ABPrime
That was it. Replaced ABPrime with 'Adblock Latitude' and we're back to normal again.

Thank you.

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Re: Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops

Unread post by Moonchild » 2017-11-10, 14:55

ABPrime is known to block startup. I've had similar long delays with the dev version when it was being created, which is why ABL and ABPrime, both mutually exclusive in that respect, became separate things.
"If you want to build a better world for yourself, you have to be willing to build one for everybody." -- Coyote Osborne
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dark_moon

Re: Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops

Unread post by dark_moon » 2017-11-10, 17:03

Nice to know.
Please mark the topic as solved

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Re: Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops

Unread post by Pale Moon Rising » 2017-11-10, 17:20

ABPrime - explains in "About this extension":
... provides complete blocking upon browser start at the minor cost of increased overall startup time depending on the amount of filter subscriptions you chose to have loaded. It also provides a higher degree of memory stability over bootstrapped incarnations of the source codebase.
I don't use any 3rd-party filters in ABPrime, only use it for my "Custom" filters, as I use uBo for 3rd-party filters. In my case I do not see any difference regarding Pale Moon startup (with ABPrime enabled or not enabled). Since ABL is a direct fork of ABP I have preferred using ABPrime for my "Custom" filters.
Current Pale Moon(x86) Release | WIN10 | I5 CPU, 1.7 GHz, 6GB RAM, 500GB HD w/ 20GB SSD

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adem0x

Re: Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops

Unread post by adem0x » 2017-11-11, 02:43

dark_moon wrote:Please mark the topic as solved
I already had.

Is there more to do other than to select/mark that green tick box?

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Re: Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops

Unread post by Pale Moon Rising » 2017-11-11, 02:56

^ You're good. :thumbup:
Current Pale Moon(x86) Release | WIN10 | I5 CPU, 1.7 GHz, 6GB RAM, 500GB HD w/ 20GB SSD

Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers

Knowing Pale Moon is indisputably #1 is defined by knowing the totality of browsers. - Pale Moon Rising

adem0x

Re: Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops

Unread post by adem0x » 2017-11-11, 03:28

... provides complete blocking upon browser start at the minor cost of increased overall startup time depending on the amount of filter subscriptions you chose to have loaded. It also provides a higher degree of memory stability over bootstrapped incarnations of the source codebase.
I must admit, I never read this blurb.

In my defence, it is not always possible to pay attention to every single detail when you're setting up a system/box all the way from fresh OS to every single application/utility the user may or may not even know exist in that setup. There are just too many small/minute details.

The thing with ABP is that the 'increased overall startup time' turned out to be not a 'minor cost' for the Lenovo laptops. It ran fine on Asus (desktop) hardware which isn't significantly more powerful than the laptops in question.

This is the reason why I never suspected ABP. It is easier to think it was something to do with the different CPUs and cache sizes and what not.

Frankly, I still cannot explain why ABP takes so long on the Lenovo laptops when everything else is practically identical (e.g. all filters enabled) on all platforms.

Anyway, here's a question I'd like to ask and discuss --unless it is considered off-topic, which might very well be:

On all these boxes, I have these extra utilities already installed and running.

-- HostsMan { http://www.abelhadigital.com/hostsman }

This is a freeware that starts up with the OS and provides an exclusion list (subscription similar to ABP, APL etc.) at the HOSTS file level. It takes over from Windows's 'DNS Client'.

-- Windows Firewall Control { https://www.binisoft.org/wfc.php } which makes managing Windows Firewall a little more humane. You can control (blacklist or whitelist) whether any given application is granted network access (inbound/outbound). Takes time and patience to fine tune; but, once tuned, is pretty useful --IME.

Now the question: Given that these provide system-wide control and lockdown, do I still need the bootstrapped protection capability of ABP?

dark_moon

Re: Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops

Unread post by dark_moon » 2017-11-11, 08:59

You shouldnt use the HOSTS for adblocking, because that wasnt designed for this and it will slow down your system.
Better use a DNS (or own DNS like with PiHole) server to filter ads on DNS level.

You can use a software firewall but this realy doesnt help if your system get infected. Malware can pass software firewalls.
So buy a router which have a hardware firewall and protect you. If that isnt enough for you, or you need to config that (most normal router firewalls cant be configured) then use a old PC or buy stuff so you can run pfSense or IPFire

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Re: Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops

Unread post by satrow » 2017-11-11, 11:24

Using a large hosts file can slow your browsing, this is alleviated by disabling the DNS Client Service in Windows. See the HostMan URL for details.
hosts_DNS.jpg
Many lists are general purpose but I try to keep my 'system' lists (high% of malware/malicious sites) in the hosts file, while using mainly adblocking/browser annoyances lists in my browsers (uBlock).

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Re: Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops

Unread post by Kand_in_Sky » 2017-11-11, 14:45

A large HOSTS make no prblems if DNS client services is off, f.e. SPYBOT ANTI BEACON adds some entries to the HOSTS file
HOSTS.jpg

adem0x

Re: Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops

Unread post by adem0x » 2017-11-11, 15:25

dark_moon wrote:You shouldnt use the HOSTS for adblocking, because that wasnt designed for this and it will slow down your system.
I just checked, there are 857,075 entries in my HOSTS file managed by HostsMan and (over the years) I haven't noticed any slowdowns at all.

I don't use HOSTS file against ad-blocking per se; but the lists I subscribe to do block those sites that contain harmful stuff --be it through ads or executables of any kind. [I admit, this statement is based on faith as I don't have to check and verify each one myself. ]
dark_moon wrote:Better use a DNS (or own DNS like with PiHole) server to filter ads on DNS level.
I have always intended to do this; but, so far, laziness coupled with the fact that the utilities I use have mostly obviated the need for a local full-fledged DNS.

It might also have to do with the fact that I have always been a lot more proficient with Windows than with Linux, in the sense that I can basically re-raise a dead Windows system as opposed to not really knowing what to do when a Linux system refuses to boot.
dark_moon wrote:You can use a software firewall but this really doesn't help if your system get infected. Malware can pass software firewalls.
Too true. I use a Peplink Balance 310 which does have a firewall (and some form of DNS) in it (doesn't let me customize it, though) plus it handles load balancing stuff for 3-4 ISPs.
dark_moon wrote:So buy a router which have a hardware firewall and protect you. If that isnt enough for you, or you need to config that (most normal router firewalls cant be configured) then use a old PC or buy stuff so you can run pfSense or IPFire
I have played with pfSense but found it to be too demanding. Similarly, I looked at OPNSense with an eye to also replace the aging Peplink, but again that was a little too demanding on my time. What I could do in 5 minutes turned out to be hours or days with either of the others due to the lack of ease of use.

On top of all that, when one has to use mobile devices, having a server or two somewhere doesn't help much --I need most of that functionality in the laptop on the go. While setting up VMs might be a suggestion; I cannot really expect myself (or anyone else) to carry a small IT department in the laptop.

adem0x

Re: Takes 4 times as long to startup on Lenovo laptops

Unread post by adem0x » 2017-11-11, 15:28

satrow wrote:Using a large hosts file can slow your browsing, this is alleviated by disabling the DNS Client Service in Windows. See the HostMan URL for details.
Yes. The moment I install HostsMan, I immediately disable the DNS Client Service in Windows and restart (since sometimes it refuses to stop).

Otherwise, if both are active, things get complicated.

I do recommend HostsMan.

One more thing for HostsMan: I also use other browsers. Since HostsMan works on the OS level, it blocks harmful sites for other browsers too.

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