Netflix and Facebook

[New Tobin Paradigm]

You keep throwing "according to spec" at this thread. Which specifications are not being followed.. Are those specs even ACTUAL specs and not some wishywashy living standard. Also, you do realize that the w3c has mostly become a mouth for pretty much only Google with "standards" fast tracked when MS, Mozilla, and Apple agree.

You can't just say.. "This site is broken in Pale Moon" and expect a fix.. In order to fix it one needs to know exactly what is broken or missing that these sites want to use. So until this can be determined by somebody ANYBODY.. It can't be put on the list of stuff that needs to be fixed or added.

Same goes with the Facebook issue.. What is it that Facebook is doing or wants to do that isn't actually working or malfunctioning or missing from the Browser. We can't determine that because the site is almost entirely javascript constructed and every bit of that javascript is minified making debugging impossible. As an example let's say someone came to us and said prototype.cactus is missing or not working correctly.. The Project would go find out what the cactus prototype is and does and then start work on a plan to add it or if it isn't "to spec" figure out what it isn't doing that it should.

But no.. That isn't happening here.. It is a mystery because the Project can't reverse engineer and debug minified code without any kind of insight from those who coded it. Not that it should be expected to do so at any rate but that is the reality of not being a megacorp. Without the cause of what is breaking these sites it cannot be fixed.. Period.

[samou812]

I never had the issue of FB images constantly refreshing, but an issue did develop sometime in the past several days of the main FB Messages pane exhibiting something similar, with a plain text message "could not display conversation list" shown at the top of the refreshing pane. Display in IE 11 does not do this. Pale Moon v 27.0.3 (x64). I do use a couple of security oriented extensions, but neither the extensions nor PM have been upgraded since this worked correctly. My suspicion is that some update to the FB UI triggered this issue (I seem to notice that the way that the messages item is displayed in the the FB lh pane has also changed, although I do not have a before screenshot to refer to. Someone mentioned in this thread that changing the UA setting fixed the problem with the FB image refresh. Should I try that for this issue? Other recommendations?

[Moonchild]

That's the issue right there. You are basing your opinion on your own use (not how prospective users might interact with the browser). You're acting as "Well if it doesn't affect me, it should be good enough for everyone else." Guess what, I also don't use Netflix, but I know a lot of other people do.

Do realize that this can be turned right around the other way as well. Why is this a problem for people? Because they find 1 particular site's operation more important than what they use as a client, and are as such basing their opinion on their own use just as much. "I don't care about the site because I don't use it" vs. "I don't care about the client because the site doesn't work with it".
Web-centricity is what many of these complaints are about, which is the exact opposite of what good webdesign is all about, which provides web applications and documents that are both accessible and client-agnostic.

As an update, Sam Pan has gotten back to me with a few questions, and a rather weird insistence on wanting to discuss things by phone (outside of business hours, at that, because they are PST and I'm CET time zone) while all it does is make things more cumbersome if you have to exchange exact technical details.
Nothing concrete yet, apart from the statement that Pale Moon usage "needs to hit a certain criterion" before they are willing to actually certify use of it. Going to be an issue since they've been forcing us to pretend to be Firefox with a strict UA there so they will never see us in their metrics as distinct -- because of their own doing.
I'm not even looking for official certification or support by them for the browser. I just want to work out what makes their website break, and one way or another fix it in a cooperative effort.

[CharmCityCrab]

Nothing concrete yet, apart from the statement that Pale Moon usage "needs to hit a certain criterion" before they are willing to actually certify use of it. Going to be an issue since they've been forcing us to pretend to be Firefox with a strict UA there so they will never see us in their metrics as distinct -- because of their own doing.

What if, upon figuring out a workabout thing for Netflix to feed Pale Moon or a way for Pale Moon to request the desired things from Netflix's, you issued a quick update to Pale Moon (stable and testing) eliminating the Netflix UA override, and made sure, in collaboration with Netflix, that whatever that string was would work for a certain period of time? Since the update would be pushed to eliminate the UA override, and Pale Moon would work with Netflix in this hypothetical with it's standard UA for at least a limited period of time, you would then have Pale Moon users viewing and having full use of the Netflix site in such a way as to be detectible to Netflix as Pale Moon users, giving them a way to gauge whether or not Pale Moon fits the criteria Netflix wants it to for certification?

Perhaps users could be encouraged to use Netflix on Pale Moon during that time period as well. I would definitely try to advertise "Works with Netflix" somehow so that people are aware that they *can* use the browser with Netflix and don't just continue doing whatever they have been doing, at a time in which we'd need as many Pale Moon users as possible using the browser with Netflix. Putting it in the release notes is obvious. I would also consider putting it in the update windows if you have the ability to do that with the current version of the browser, and on the main page of the website (temporarily), and so on and so forth.

That assumes that the metrics are reachable for the browser- which is something you would be able to make an educated guess about based on what Netflix reveals to you about the metrics and what you know about the size and usage patterns of the Pale Moon user base (Which I know is difficult with telemetry disabled, but you may have something- like pings from browsers checking in with the update server).

I don't know what Netflix means by certification exactly, but if it means what I think it does, then the potential benefits of certification would likely be that Netflix tests it's own site revisions against the most recent version or versions of Pale Moon to make sure they work, and sends out a customized version of it's site to all requests with Pale Moon in the UA, as it probably does for other browsers (Perhaps not versions that seem customized from the user-end, but which are code optimized).

Certification could conceivably be the difference between working with Mr. Pan on a temporary solution that may break when the browser or Netflix next change, because they are not testing for the browser, and a permanent solution where Netflix would be testing for and catering to the browser to whatever extent it caters to Chrome, Edge, Firefox, Safari, etc.. Essentially, if certification is what I think it is, this could lift most of the burden from you and your team and place it on the Netflix team in terms of new releases on both sides being compatible.

[Moonchild]

CharmCityCrab: TL;DR past your first paragraph, because it doesn't matter what else is done -- if a temporary solution is made, then that solution can also be deployed permanently. Anything more is being needlessly complex and not pragmatic at all.

[CharmCityCrab]

CharmCityCrab: TL;DR past your first paragraph, because it doesn't matter what else is done -- if a temporary solution is made, then that solution can also be deployed permanently. Anything more is being needlessly complex and not pragmatic at all.

Fair enough. I am certainly happy to defer to your expertise on the matter. Thank you for working on this issue for the benefit of all of your Netflix subscribing Pale Moon users.

[Andrew Gilbertson]

As an update, Sam Pan has gotten back to me with a few questions, and a rather weird insistence on wanting to discuss things by phone (outside of business hours, at that, because they are PST and I'm CET time zone) while all it does is make things more cumbersome if you have to exchange exact technical details.

This suggests to me that Sam Pan is in a business centric role. In my experience, those people always want to do things over the phone and rarely want to have anything outside of an actual contract written down (which I think is a form of CYA ("cover your ass") for them because they can always deny that something was said).

Nothing concrete yet, apart from the statement that Pale Moon usage "needs to hit a certain criterion" before they are willing to actually certify use of it. Going to be an issue since they've been forcing us to pretend to be Firefox with a strict UA there so they will never see us in their metrics as distinct -- because of their own doing.

Smells like BS. I'd say you should insist on finding out what that "certain criterion" is specifically, but I think it's better not to anger our one helpful contact at Netflix, so save that until you're in touch with someone who's actually sufficiently technical to not respond badly to that kind of question.

[Moonchild]

I don't care how much of a CYA is part of the wanting to do this by phone is -- it's going to be clumsy and likely a waste of time trying to exchange technical details verbally that need to be written down anyway. Way too error-prone. So looking at that plus the fact that we're in non-matching time zones, it's kind of a no-brainer which medium is better.

As for the criterion, not necessarily BS since if they need to make an investment to support and maintain support for Pale Moon, it will have to have a certain size user base to warrant it, from a business perspective. IMO though, that threshold should be fairly low.

[Moonchild]

Well, after Sam suggesting to use a Firefox override ignoring that I already stated that that is what we are doing, no further communication occurred since the 24th of January. So much for actually getting to someone who is going to be more help than 1st line support people....

[Richvideo]

Well, after Sam suggesting to use a Firefox override ignoring that I already stated that that is what we are doing, no further communication occurred since the 24th of January. So much for actually getting to someone who is going to be more help than 1st line support people....

Did you make the late night/early morning call to him as he requested to feel him out on how much online help he was willing to provide?

[kizo07]

All that 'Netflix story' was for me a bit strange from beginning, but
'The afternoon knows what the morning never suspected'

When I searched for Sam Pan, I got a lot of China restaurant results. But, Sam Pan + Netflix gives me fe. this: http://www.spoke.com/info/pBEVode/SamPan ...obliviously he like to speak I just don't know why he then leaved an email address too. Even on LinkedIn.
Probably 'Sam' prefer to talk only in the early morning CET, especially on Mondays...He have to exercise early in the morning before his brain figures out what he is doing.

[Richvideo]

All that 'Netflix story' was for me a bit strange from beginning, but
'The afternoon knows what the morning never suspected'

When I searched for Sam Pan, I got a lot of China restaurant results. But, Sam Pan + Netflix gives me fe. this: http://www.spoke.com/info/pBEVode/SamPan ...obliviously he like to speak I just don't know why he then leaved an email address too. Even on LinkedIn.
Probably 'Sam' prefer to talk only in the early morning CET, especially on Mondays...He have to exercise early in the morning before his brain figures out what he is doing.

You must be bad at Google-ing, his info is here and MC has Sam's email
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sampan/

[Gandalfdjh]

If it works, fine, if not then use another freebee to watch the videos.

[Richvideo]

If it works, fine, if not then use another freebee to watch the videos.

Video playback is not the issue, the issue was/is that the Netflix UI does not work in PM. You can't get movie details or add or adjust movies in your list

[Gandalfdjh]

Once again, if it is not working the way you want. You have other choices. If you have the technical knowledge to offer a solution to the issue, then feel free to suggest it. If not then you have the choice of finding another freebee to do what you want it to. The decision is yours. You have made suggestions and they seem not have been the answer, thus it is decision time for you. Accept or move on.

[JodyThornton]

Once again, if it is not working the way you want. You have other choices. If you have the technical knowledge to offer a solution to the issue, then feel free to suggest it. If not then you have the choice of finding another freebee to do what you want it to. The decision is yours. You have made suggestions and they seem not have been the answer, thus it is decision time for you. Accept or move on.

Yeah Richvideo! (the following is in jest my friend). How dare you download this browser, install it and hop on this forum, without being armed with the know how to contribute to programming fixes, or to do it yourself. Doesn't work for you? Then go away?

And yet they say, they're being helpful. I'm sorry, but I'm finding the environment here is no better than on MozzilaZine. There may be different viewpoints at play, but true colours are starting to be revealed. If you don't tow the line, or if you ask too many questions, or dare you state opposition to the tide of popular opinion, then damn you! But most forums are actually like that. I'm on audio forums, radio forums and software forums, and they ALL exhibit this toxic behaviour. It's just fanboyism.

[JodyThornton]

Once again, if it is not working the way you want. You have other choices. If you have the technical knowledge to offer a solution to the issue, then feel free to suggest it. If not then you have the choice of finding another freebee to do what you want it to. The decision is yours. You have made suggestions and they seem not have been the answer, thus it is decision time for you. Accept or move on.

I know people here don't see browser users as customers, but if someone told you as a solution "well there are other choices", how would you feel? I know you'll say, "We'll then I'll look elsewhere", but believe me, you'd feel differently. I don't understand why you are all so cavalier about these issues. I had a good chat with one fellow in PM, and I get what he's saying, but not everyone is going to be able to provide programmatic services to assist in the remedy of issues.

[back2themoon]

...interminable rant...

You still somehow fail (?) to understand that you are not asking support for a toolbar button that's in the wrong position, but for 100% compatibility with corporate-giant websites that fail/deny to co-operate, which is A BIT more complex. Your queries have been kindly addressed many times over. At one point, it's only natural that kindness will give place to something else, if you keep behaving like a spoiled kid who doesn't get what he wants.

Actually, I admire the patience shown here since you keep asking the same things, over and over again.

[JodyThornton]

That was not an interminable rant "back to the moon". Constructive criticism, whether you agree with it or not should always be part of the discussion. What we're arguing is that Pale Moon users should want overall compatibility with giant websites because that will ENSURE Pale Moon's survival. If you don't care about that, you'll be the one looking for an alternate choice before long, not me.

And it's funny that you dare to insult me, saying I'm acting like a spoiled kid. It's OK since you really don't know me; you can say what you want. But didn't you take offence to my little satire about the situation? So aren't you now acting out the same way you accuse me of? So it's OK for you to insult me as a plain user, but how dare I "insult" or poke fun at the creators of the product? Seems to me, you're acting like a fanboy, and that's never a desirable trait. So go ahead, never question your masters, and disregard any suggestions from anyone that oppose their views. That is childish and blind of you, not me.

It's is people like you that make forums like this a toxic place to be. Again, you are acting no better than MozillaZine right now.
(tisk tisk tisk)

[kizo07]

Bang On! Totally agree with you Jody! Go ahead, my friend!
They just wait that we stop care about them and fall in apathy so at they can continue bugging us.