Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

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Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by eskaton » 2016-08-11, 13:10

Referring to: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12749

1) Will this only affect new installations going forward, or will a future point release remove Google search options from existing installations?

2) Will we have any way to manually add Google to the search box? Under Manage Search Engines there's the link for 'Get More Search Engines...' which links to AMO and has a Google Default option.

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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by Moonchild » 2016-08-11, 13:32

1) Unless you've added custom Google searchplugin yourself, the Google option will be removed from the search box in existing installations.
2) You are free to install any Google searchplugin to restore this search engine to your choices of course, since we will never limit your freedom in that respect, but we will not be a charity to them by default when they screw us over. Nope. Not having any of that.
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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by megaman » 2016-08-11, 16:23

I hope this doesn't affect users greatly, I'm sure the majority uses Google at some form. I'm for the idea, they shouldn't get away with their practice but it looks like a personal vendetta that should keep itself private.
Off-topic:
Despite the fact that JetPack add-ons are going to be disallowed in Tycho, this will be opening a Pandora's box with Pale Moon followers. Developers won't hear us fully, and I have a few that I want to keep, might have to build from scratch many few.

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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2016-08-11, 16:37

megaman wrote:I hope this doesn't affect users greatly, I'm sure the majority uses Google at some form.
The only material effect on users of Pale Moon will be they will need to go get a Google Search Plugin to continue using Google Search from the Browser's Search Box or the one in about:home (as if anyone uses that internal page). Also, the start page at start.me will no longer have Google search.. This will NOT affect Google Services you might have.. Maps, GMail, etc..
megaman wrote:I'm for the idea, they shouldn't get away with their practice but it looks like a personal vendetta that should keep itself private.
Have you heard of transparency.. People all the time bitch that they were never told or informed of something happening.. That decisions merely blindsided them.. You know it is irritating that people request transparency and information to be clearly stated and then refuse to actually read let alone understand what is being spoon fed to them. Re-read the thread/post megaman. Read EVERYTHING before YOU post, everyone.

But back to the point.. So your contention is that shady practices are bad but they should never be brought out of the darkness for all to see? How does that help anyone? Personal Vendetta? To whom is this personal vendetta targeting.. Us or them? Clarify yourself when making such a statement.
megaman wrote:
Off-topic:
Despite the fact that JetPack add-ons are going to be disallowed in Tycho, this will be opening a Pandora's box with Pale Moon followers. Developers won't hear us fully, and I have a few that I want to keep, might have to build from scratch many few.
What are you even talking about.. What does Jetpack have to do with Google..
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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by megaman » 2016-08-11, 16:52

Matt A Tobin wrote:You know it is irritating that people request transparency and information to be clearly stated and then refuse to actually read let alone understand what is being spoon fed to them. Re-read the thread/post megaman. Read EVERYTHING before YOU post, everyone.
I understand the reasoning and I even accept it, but we don't speak for everyone.
It's the "I have a problem with said product so I am removing it or disabling it," personal decisions that affect the majority. When I clean-install the browser, I add and remove search engines and tweak so many things, it gets aggravating over time. I'm sure a user doesn't want to take time to go and change a search engine, regardless of how easy it is, they just want it to be there, period.

It's OFF-TOPIC for a reason, thus the flag.
Off-topic:
Something like disallowing DRM and not getting YouTube resolutions, but you see how it came back and got users upset. You want people to start moaning and complaining? I sure don't.

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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2016-08-11, 17:00

And exactly what would your solution be? Also, are you implying that we as developers are not able or allowed to make choices regarding the products we develop?

We are not blocking anyone's ability to use whatever search provider they want.. That is not our job or our goal. As Moonchild CLEARLY stated.. You will be able to re-add Google as a search plugin and then it is business as usual for the life of your profile. If you chose to destroy your profile then you will have to obtain the plugin again. That is all still your choice. Our choices are the defaults which you can change how you see fit.

Or.. you know.. you can use something else that is more to your liking...
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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by megaman » 2016-08-11, 17:06

Matt A Tobin wrote:And exactly what would your solution be?
Tycho brings back options for resolutions on YouTube, you guys caved in probably to the complaints.
Search might come back for the people moaning about this or abscond the whole thread by not removing it, but seeing that I am saying this you guys might either play along or prevent it from every happening.

I understand the sentiment, Google is a problem but let's not say, "I hate this product and will remove it, even though the majority of people use said product."

"Or you know, you can take a hike." What kind of message are we trying to give people? This is too negative, it might just make Pale Moon developers infamous, not something we want.

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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2016-08-11, 17:16

megaman wrote:Tycho brings back options for resolutions on YouTube, you guys caved in probably to the complaints.
Search might come back for the people moaning about this or abscond the whole thread by not removing it, but seeing that I am saying this you guys might either play along or prevent it from every happening.

I understand the sentiment, Google is a problem but let's not say, "I hate this product and will remove it, even though the majority of people use said product."
We did NOT cave.. We inherited the media source extensions technology along with many other things both good and bad. We could rip it out if you'd like? However, we felt that as long as it doesn't employ the backbox technology associated with DRM that having MSE would benefit users. Not JUST Youtube but everyone else employing the technology.

I resent your blatant misconceptions (despite being clearly stated otherwise) of how you think this project functions and your disregard for the time and effort that many of us freely give to satisfying your's and everyone's needs.

You do realize that this decision does involve actual work as well? We have to strip the Google Search plugin out of the browser. I also have to create a new section on the Add-ons Site for search plugins and work out exactly how to serve them so it triggers an install of the search provider. Which of course is not documented very well.

You also need realize that this decision is going to be a burden for the project as whole as well. We were left with little option and this is the way it needs to happen.

We don't like it, you don't like it.. No one likes it but at this point and time it is what it is. Stay the course, follow the path, continue on.
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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by superA » 2016-08-11, 17:19

I agree with megaman.
We don't speak for our personal preferences either ( I don't use Google Search, nor the searchbar altogether), but it must be there as an option.
The project will go missing in the long run with this decision.

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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by back2themoon » 2016-08-11, 17:24

Not really a problem, I just think you should add a bit more -detailed/newbie/reassuring- info to the announcement(s) on how someone can still make Google searches (especially searchbox-related), because some people will think they won't be able to use Google at all any more.
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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2016-08-11, 17:34

Defaults are the starting point. It is up to you to change them if they are not to your liking. As I stated.. I will be putting considerable effort into developing and figuring out a good way to serve the search provider plugins including Google so that it it can be installed easily from the Add-ons Site.

You know, we don't include Bing or Yahoo in our selection of default search plugins either.. Funny how no one really brings this up.. Also, we DO for some reason include Wikipedia.. So, my question is.. Disregarding the situation with Google its self.. How is this really going to be any different than if a Pale Moon user wanted Yahoo or Bing?
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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by megaman » 2016-08-11, 17:38

Matt A Tobin wrote:You do realize that this decision does involve actual work as well?
This is something you didn't have to undergo if you guys didn't make the decision in the first place.
Of course, we all resent each other's comments when we aren't favored but you said it a long time ago, "We may not agree with everything."

Edit: I use Bing, mainly due to the rewards and my amount of search points, but begrudgingly I have to accept that Google is still top dog so this affects us more than Bing being removed.

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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by Pallid Planetoid » 2016-08-11, 17:44

Personally I virtually never use Google Search (never have really), so if that is all this amounts to then from my perspective good riddance as it's literally a non-issue for me personally. As far as I'm concerned I've always wondered why so many people are so enamored by "Google Search" in the first place (all we hear is the annoying ever so pervasive term "google it" when it comes to searching the web). Possibly it's the novel name, because I don't see how it's really any better than a number of other Search Engines quite frankly. And I would add that users should at least consider using other Search Engines simply because of some of the imperious actions commonly perpetrated by Google regarding their ever increasing influence in technology. Now as far as so many other applications, yes it's virtually impossible to avoid Google on the net in many respects, but regarding just Search Engines we have many excellent alternatives to choose from it seems to me. ;) And of course for those who for some reason can't live without Google Search, there are ways to keep this option available and have been outlined by the Pale Moon staff.

That all said, I do see the point some are making as far as the fact that there will be a great deal of "casual" users who will inevitably expect the "Google Search" to be there for them and how this might inevitably impact user support for Pale Moon which does greatly concern me personally. :think: So undoubtedly there exists a conundrum in this regard, on the other hand I personally don't see why in-the-world browsers should be forced to yield to Google browser design demands either in the end. Leave it to Google to create these kinds of dubious situations. :thumbdown:
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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2016-08-11, 17:49

For the record, I personally do use Google Search most of the time. It really depends on what I am searching for. Since their results are aimed at the most popular answer to the query. Of course I use DDG as well when I want the results to be most probable for something that may not be the A1 Top popular result. Fact is, I personally do use Google Search more.. And once I rebuild with this change in effect, I will go get the search plugin to resume normal operation.. No biggy.

In the meantime, I have to work out and devise a barely documented way for users to easily install search providers from the Add-ons Site.. So I am bowing out of this thread for the time being..
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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by Pallid Planetoid » 2016-08-11, 17:52

Matt A Tobin wrote: You know, we don't include Bing or Yahoo in our selection of default search plugins either.. Funny how no one really brings this up.. Also, we DO for some reason include Wikipedia.. So, my question is.. Disregarding the situation with Google its self.. How is this really going to be any different than if a Pale Moon user wanted Yahoo or Bing?
Hmm, I'm surprised to hear this :o, I didn't know this about Yahoo or Bing not being available choices by default :eh:, I had thought they were both included as alternatives (perhaps were in the past :?:). So with this in mind, point well taken. :thumbup: To be fair, this fact should certainly quiet down the debate it seems to me. :shh:
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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2016-08-11, 17:56

I was mistaken on the included default search providers. I was looking at my own instance. Sorry about that.
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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by megaman » 2016-08-11, 18:07

Pale Moon Rising wrote:Leave it to Google to create these kinds of dubious situations. :thumbdown:
Matt A. Tobin explained it very clearly, it's about the search results and how Google represents them better, I personally don't ever use it to care for it but knowing that many users use it...
Since many use Google, others feel like they have to use it, need to be in the "in" crowd pressure I guess. Giving good results also furthers the admiration.
Off-topic:
The "Google it" is the bane of my existence, I personally take stance about it when I don't use Google, and renaming "Search" for something preferable is not a guarantee that the search engine is going to be used by every single person. I learned this lesson by saying "I want a grape Coke," no Coke soda or an specific Coca-Cola that is grape-flavored, excluding other brands owned by Coca-Cola. Same for cuts, we say "Get the Band-Aid" when we should be saying to get an adhesive strip, undermines other brands.

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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by Moonchild » 2016-08-11, 18:09

Google is still an option, see my first reply in this thread.

As for people rage-quitting because Google is removed -- that's going to happen, undoubtedly. But what do you really expect me to do?

The problem is very simple and is not a personal vendetta at all. It's business:
Google as a search plugin doesn't help the project. It's been available to our users as a default for both historical reasons (before good alternatives were available) and because it's generally desired to have available as an option. Additionally, it's been available as extra "free" support to them for financially supporting the project through the monetized parts of their AdSense service. Bing and Yahoo! are similarly included as optional choices by default because users would generally like to have those as alternative choices.
However, if the company behind this particular user choice is giving us low blows as they have been, bordering on anti-competitive reasoning and behavior if you want to look at it, they simply cannot be endorsed by us any longer. As such, them being available in the browser by default is no longer desired from a project management point of view.
We cannot in good conscience continue to give them more free search traffic that they cash in on while they refuse to give us the revenue we should be entitled to, but have now twitsted their interpretation of their policies into cutting us off, initially without explanation, even.
We are not a charity, and Google is not a "good cause".

And no, Pale Moon won't "block" anything or prevent use of Google otherwise. Why would people even think this? We are publishing a General Use browser. You are free to continue using Google Services through it for as far as Google Services remain browser-agnostic enough to work in Pale Moon. Nobody is stopping you from re-installing Google as a searchplugin. Nobody is stopping you from setting Google as your home page.

What will change is removal of Google as a choice as-supplied with the browser out-of-the-box, and removal from the uncustomized, public, start portal page. That is all. Nothing more.
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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2016-08-11, 18:42

I did not say that Google results are better. I said they are more likely to present the most popular response to a given query. Do not twist my words.
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Re: Google Search to be removed from Pale Moon

Post by megaman » 2016-08-11, 18:50

Moonchild wrote:Nobody is stopping you from re-installing Google as a searchplugin. Nobody is stopping you from setting Google as your home page.
Off-topic:
I got thumbed-down like crazy for defending Intel, a company I hate for their business practices, mainly for what evil things they did to kick AMD from it's high position in 2006.
The Intel processors make a chip and they lock it, prevent to overclock it without risks. Then, they make the same chip and allow it to be overclocked with "K" slapped on the processor name. Same chip but they charge more for the unlocked version without any changes, and my argument started when some motherboards accidentally allowed the chip to be overclocked. People feel like Intel shouldn't be locking the processors in the first place, overlooking that AMD does the same, just because of that slip-up.
It's their business decision and I stood by that, regardless of how unfair it is and everyone was raging at me for standing by it. So, the "business is business" doesn't make it okay because some companies make poor choices.
My main reason is to prevent a fire before it even starts, after the implementation.
Matt A Tobin wrote:I did not say that Google results are better. I said they are more likely to present the most popular response to a given query.
Many times I see people post about their reasons why they choose Google over others, they use the same reasoning that the results give the most popular response and I use it accordingly. It sounds like "It's better in this way."

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