Google Mesh WiFi

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moonbob69
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Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by moonbob69 » 2022-06-29, 21:59

Linux:
PM 28:16:
32-bit:
no add-ons, plugins:
Regarding "Re: Submitting posts, general TCP issue", reply by Moonchild in "Forum and website" on 2020-08-14", my "about:config:network.http.pipelining" was set to False two years ago but that hasn't helped.

I have returned to the building where those Google Mesh wifi routers are, and the issue is worse. It is like PM sends a request but the network never actually forwards it, with PM waiting until fixed timeouts unless stopped.

Since there must be lots of those Mesh networks being sold and not lots of reports on this forum or elsewhere, this issue must be within the Google local setup parameters that can be changed (by mistake or otherwise); I don't have access to those. PM has "Auto-detect proxy settings" set in Preferences, with cookies cleared daily or before problem sites.

Sites that worked fine using free wifi from McDonalds, Lowes, etc, now have long waits or never load at all using this Google Mesh network. Frequently, clicking STOP and then RELOAD fixes the problem, but sometimes only after doing that 5-10 times. If the page was a form, I was worried that clicking the "resend data" box would cause problems, but it hasn't even when doing that 10 times.

There is usually no DNS or firewall problem in that some part of the addressed page loads right away, but the other parts (shown in the lower left corner) have long delays. Sometimes this is shown as a long delay in "performing TLS handshake".

As an example, during the same time that an SSH connection to a futurequest.net server had no noticable delays or problems, an https connection using PM to futurequest.net took 26 minutes to load in PM without using restarts:
(timing done manually with clock)
elapsed time - progress shown - display in corner
0:00 - :01 50% (most of page displayed)
0:03 - :10 70% (didn't record)
0:10 - 1:15 80% waiting for futurequest.net
1:15 - 2:30 85% transferring data futurequest.net
2:30 - 3:00 - waiting for futurequest.net
3:00 - 3:40 - waiting for platform.twitter.com
3:40 - 4:15 - transferring data futurequest.net
4:16 - 6:00 95% waiting for platform.twitter.com
6:00 - 7:10 - transferring data futurequest.net
7:10 - (Follow with Twitter button appeared)
7:10 - 10:00 - transferring data syndication.twitter.com
10:00 - 16:30 - waiting for futurequest.net
16:30 - 20:00 - transferring data futurequest.net
20:00 - 26:20 - waiting for futurequest.net
26:20 100% Done

This is a page that normally takes a second or two to load from elsewhere.
Note: nearly 2 minutes waiting, 3 minutes getting data from syndication.twitter? How many packets are involved? Who sets the timeouts?

I also did a Traceroute to futurequest.net, which reported 13 hops, the first 5 being the wifi in the building. Nodes 8 and 9 (level3.net routers south of New York) mostly did not respond (shown ***, waits > 30 sec) but the overall route was only 60 ms.

Most recently some pages, including Lyft.com using reCaptcha boxes on forms, never load the images, just show 6 seconds of waiting no matter how many times you click the "I'm not a Robot" box.

Editing Wikipedia sometimes reports
"Request from 71.230.16.111 via cp1075 cp1075, Varnish XID 147058626
Error: 503, Backend fetch failed at (time)" or similar.

After many reloads, https://www.fedex.com/fedextrack.... reported: "Secure Connection Failed An error occurred during a connection to www.fedex.com. SSL peer reports incorrect Message Authentication Code. (Error code: ssl_error_bad_mac_alert)"

A bank, http://personal.synovus.com/#pre-auth/login reports:
"Error 522 Ray ID: 71fdb3d1ce008c11 • 2022-06-23 13:52:08 UTC Connection timed out
personal.synovus.com Host Error
Error 522 occurs when Cloudflare times out contacting the origin web server. Two different timeouts cause HTTP error 522 depending on when they occur between Cloudflare and the origin web server:
Before a connection is established, the origin web server does not return a SYN+ACK to Cloudflare within 15 seconds of Cloudflare sending a SYN.
After a connection is established, the origin web server doesn’t acknowledge (ACK) Cloudflare’s resource request within 90 seconds."

This error was repeatable in that I never got access to the bank,
but it was sometimes issued by ".../#pre-auth/login" and other times by ".../#pre-auth/login?username=(actual username)", still before https shown. Any idea how Google Mesh (or PM?) could affect Cloudflare? (Problem did not exist using public wifi.)

Since other tenants of this building using ordinary browsers apparently don't have this problem, there must be something about PM interacting with the mesh wifi that causes these network issues.

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Re: Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by Night Wing » 2022-06-29, 23:34

Your Pale Moon version 28.16.0 was released on 11-24-2020 if my memory serves me correctly. Why are you using a version of Pale Moon which has reached end of life on (12-18-2020)?

Try updating your browser to the current version which is 31.1.0 and see if this solves your problem.
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Re: Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by moonbob69 » 2022-06-30, 00:31

Last time I checked, that was the lastest version off-the-shelf for my 32-bit OS.
Checking now, https://build.opensuse.org/package/show ... r/palemoon (which actually hung my PM for a few minutes) it is unclear which would be the right one.

I will try to get an upgrade, and if that makes a difference then we will have useful info on what the problem was.

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Re: Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by Nigaikaze » 2022-06-30, 00:39

moonbob69 wrote:
2022-06-30, 00:31
for my 32-bit OS
And your OS is ... ?
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Re: Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by moonbob69 » 2022-06-30, 03:26

Xenialpup 7.5

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Re: Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-06-30, 08:41

If the issue occurs with TLS handshaking then you may want to have a look at the Google setup for secure connections and make sure it interferes as little as possible. Do not use proxies (try setting it manually to "no proxy"). Check for wifi signal interference or busy channels, too (try changing channels). Check your physical setup of the APs.
of note you cannot compare a terminal connection to the way http communicates with a server. They are apples and oranges. http will create many concurrent connections to a server that all initiate roughly at once so a proper and error free handling of TCP packets is imperative in that phase for quick connections.
moonbob69 wrote:
2022-06-29, 21:59
Error: 503, Backend fetch failed at (time)
That is a server error, telling you that their caching front-end couldn't communicate with their back-end. It has nothing to do with Pale Moon.
Error 522 Ray ID: 71fdb3d1ce008c11 • 2022-06-23 13:52:08 UTC Connection timed out
personal.synovus.com Host Error
Also a server error. Very similar, the caching front-end (in this case cloudflare by the looks of it) could not connect to the origin server

For future reference, if you see a 500 class http error this is always something that went wrong server-side and will never be a problem with the browser.
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Re: Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by Night Wing » 2022-06-30, 09:21

@ moonbob69

Quite a few linux distros have went to 64 bit only. The distro I use, Mint, is 64 bit only. With that said, some time ago as an experiment, I tried to use a 32 bit browser in 64 bit Mint. After clicking on the browser's launcher icon, the browser would not open and would not run.

I do not use Steven Pusser's builds for Pale Moon in Mint. I use the 64 bit builds for Pale Moon at the link below.

http://linux.palemoon.org/download/mainline/

Since I'm not familiar with Xenialpup 7.5, I'm guessing the 64 bit Pale Moon builds listed at the link above will not install and run in your linux distro. If they do install; I think they won't run, but if they do run, they would cause severe problems.

I do not know enough about Pusser's builds. At the link you posted, it does list version 31.1.0, but most of those versions are 64 bit. I don't know what bit i586 is so I'm going to guess it is not 64 bit.
Off-topic:
It might just come down to you having to purchase a newer computer and if it is a 64 bit computer, you'll have to use the 64 bit Pale Moon browser. But this might force you to give up Xenialpup if this distro is 32 bit only. If that is the case, you will have to give up using Xenialpup and go to a 64 bit distro.

If money is tight for you at this time, go to a computer repair shop and you can get a good "used" 64 bit laptop and/or desktop tower computer that won't cost you a lot of money.

As an example. I've replaced both of my two 64 bit Windows 7 desktop tower computers with two 64 bit Windows 8 desktop tower computers. Both of these two Windows 8 computers came with Intel i7 processors in them along with having 32 GB of memory and 3 hard drive bays in both of them. One of the tower computers has a processor speed of 3.40 and the other has (3.60).

Why? Because the Fedora linux distro is trying to get other linux distros to only install their distros using UEFI only. Not Legacy BIOS. The two Windows 7 tower computers were Legacy BIOS only. They were not UEFI. So if other linux distros follow Fedora's advice (and a lot of them do not like this idea), I would have a problem with any computer which only has Legacy BIOS on the motherboard.

The two used Windows 8 desktop towers I purchased have both UEFI and Legacy BIOS on their motherboard. I paid $300 (US) dollars each for a total of $600 (US) dollars. Since they are old computers, they were basically inexpensive compared to when they were bought new back in the year 2012 which would have been over $2000 "total" for both of them back them.

Two weeks ago, I bought a 15" Dell laptop which is 64 bit, has 32 GB of memory, an Intel i7 processor with a processor speed of 2.50, an AMD graphics chip on the motherboard and a backlit keyboard. Cost was $300 (US) dollars since it originally came with 64 bit Windows 8. BTW, when it comes to a laptop which I plan to run a linux distro on it, in this case Mint, I prefer AMD graphics chips over Nvidia graphics chips since the linux Nvidia drivers have given me headaches whereas AMD linux drivers have not.

In closing. Sometimes things happen where one is forced to adapt to changes.
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Re: Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by Nigaikaze » 2022-06-30, 18:42

moonbob69 wrote:
2022-06-30, 03:26
Xenialpup 7.5
Which, from my understanding, is based on Ubuntu 16.04. I believe Steve Pusser dropped support for 16.04 in his repo because that distro is so old. I highly recommend you upgrade your system to a distro that supports the current version of PM (31.1.0) because of all of the security fixes that have been put in place. The old version that you're running is susceptible to multiple vulnerabilities and is no longer supported in any way.
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Re: Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by moonbob69 » 2022-06-30, 23:59

There is nothing "wrong" with PM; the same laptop when connecting to free wifi has none of those problems. But there is something about PM connecting to this Google network that is different than Android, iPhone, and Windows laptops that my neighbors use and apparently don't have problems with.

> to have a look at the Google setup for secure connections
I'm not aware how a user would have access to that information.

The various enumerated errors are all from servers, but how can choices or actions taken at the network router level affect servers?

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Re: Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-07-01, 11:07

moonbob69 wrote:
2022-06-30, 23:59
But there is something about PM connecting to this Google network that is different than Android, iPhone, and Windows laptops that my neighbors use and apparently don't have problems with.
So what clients are those using? Webkit/Blink-based?
I wouldn't actually be half-surprised if Google purposely crippled anyone not using their latest draft protocols.
moonbob69 wrote:
2022-06-30, 23:59
> to have a look at the Google setup for secure connections
I'm not aware how a user would have access to that information.
I'm assuming your "Mesh" setup is using user-controlled access points/devices, yes? Those are the ones that control the handshakes and connect setup/routint. Those access poitns will have interfaces for configuration. That is what I meant.
If this is somehow vendor-supplied then the only thing you can do is complain to the vendors.
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Re: Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by nero355 » 2022-07-01, 15:26

Night Wing wrote:
2022-06-30, 09:21
Off-topic:
It might just come down to you having to purchase a newer computer and if it is a 64 bit computer, you'll have to use the 64 bit Pale Moon browser. But this might force you to give up Xenialpup if this distro is 32 bit only. If that is the case, you will have to give up using Xenialpup and go to a 64 bit distro.

If money is tight for you at this time, go to a computer repair shop and you can get a good "used" 64 bit laptop and/or desktop tower computer that won't cost you a lot of money.

As an example. I've replaced both of my two 64 bit Windows 7 desktop tower computers with two 64 bit Windows 8 desktop tower computers. Both of these two Windows 8 computers came with Intel i7 processors in them along with having 32 GB of memory and 3 hard drive bays in both of them. One of the tower computers has a processor speed of 3.40 and the other has (3.60).

Why? Because the Fedora linux distro is trying to get other linux distros to only install their distros using UEFI only. Not Legacy BIOS. The two Windows 7 tower computers were Legacy BIOS only. They were not UEFI. So if other linux distros follow Fedora's advice (and a lot of them do not like this idea), I would have a problem with any computer which only has Legacy BIOS on the motherboard.

The two used Windows 8 desktop towers I purchased have both UEFI and Legacy BIOS on their motherboard. I paid $300 (US) dollars each for a total of $600 (US) dollars. Since they are old computers, they were basically inexpensive compared to when they were bought new back in the year 2012 which would have been over $2000 "total" for both of them back them.

Two weeks ago, I bought a 15" Dell laptop which is 64 bit, has 32 GB of memory, an Intel i7 processor with a processor speed of 2.50, an AMD graphics chip on the motherboard and a backlit keyboard. Cost was $300 (US) dollars since it originally came with 64 bit Windows 8. BTW, when it comes to a laptop which I plan to run a linux distro on it, in this case Mint, I prefer AMD graphics chips over Nvidia graphics chips since the linux Nvidia drivers have given me headaches whereas AMD linux drivers have not.

In closing. Sometimes things happen where one is forced to adapt to changes.
Off-topic:
Your story makes no sense to me :
- Why would I upgrade something because something might happen but probably won't like the forced BIOS to UEFI switch by Linux distros ?!
- Any laptop supporting 64-bit OS and software is at least 10 years old by now and can easily be bought for half or less than half of the $ 300 you are mentioning! ;)

For example : Lenovo T520 for about € 140 bought second hand will do just fine, but even older models will do just fine for some browsing around on the internet...
About this "Google problem" stuff :

How do you know it's Pale Moon related ?
Do other browsers connect correctly ?

How do you know it's Google Mesh WiFi related ?
I don't think companies would use a solution meant for Home Users ?!
Or do they have some kind of Enterprise/SOHO product version by now ?

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Re: Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by Night Wing » 2022-07-02, 02:34

Off-topic:
@ nero355

I made a mistake in the specs. The Dell I bought has 32 GB memory sticks in it, but it is only addressing 16 GB. The Dell model I bought is a Dell Inspiron 15 5559 which you can see at the link below. And there are pictures of it also.

https://dl.dell.com/manuals/all-product ... _en-us.pdf

Still, with 16 GB of memory, a 6th generation Intel Core i7 processor at 2.50 processor speed, a 1 TB, 7200 rpm platter hard drive with only 2,517 hours on it, AMD Radeon graphics, a backlit keyboard, a 10 key numeric keypad and a touchscreen that actually works in linux Mint 20.3 (Una) Xfce, for $300 is a very good buy. Screen resolution is 1920 x 1080 also.

One other point. This Dell I bought; on the backside of it, you unscrew two screws which removes the large plastic cover exposing a large compartment. In the compartment, you can see the hard drive, two 8 GB memory slots, the wifi card, the small round battery attached to the motherboard and the connection (wire) for sound. In other words, this laptop is easy to work on (replace things) if I have to.

Most of the laptops I've seen, you have to almost take them all apart just to one or two items of the above, which also means you unscrew about 30 screws. If I have to blow out the dust bunnies which will accumulate on the fan blades, all I have to do is carefully pop up the keyboard, since there are no screws holding the keyboard, just a few plastic clips and the fan blades are exposed and put some air from a pancake air compressor so no overheating problems.

If you can find one like mine for $150 (or even less than $150), let me know.
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Re: Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by moonbob69 » 2022-07-03, 09:45

How do you know it's Google Mesh WiFi related ?
Only a few days after connecting with no problems to mcdvoice.com from free WiFi, connecting thru this network with same laptop always caused excessive waiting (> 30 sec) to load some elements of the site, which was 100% cured using STOP, Reload, Resend form data once or twice each time. It's like some browser requests are just lost.

The network is composed of several Model AC-1304 2-band nodes connected by ethernet to a Comcast router. The WiFi also supports several security cameras, wifi TV's and phones, and other laptops. Originaly I thought the delays could be due to camera traffic, but the same problems occur at 4AM.

The owner, although not an IT professional, prides themselves with being tech-literate and customized the setup.

What I'm looking for is information on exactly what network behavior can account for this issue; then I can complain.
Do other browsers connect correctly ?
No one else has complained of problems, so phone browsers and Windows laptops do not cause noticable problems. I don't actually know what browsers the laptop users have, but 26 minutes to load a page that loads elsewhere in 2 seconds would be noticed.
try setting manually to "no proxy"
After changing the PM setting to "no proxy", I thought the proxy change worked: a login to gmail was successful without the "Something went wrong" screen. (Once gmail is connected, there had never been an issue, using the html-only setting, with loading new tabs etc.) However, a little later I tried to login again, and once again got delays "waiting for mail.google...", "waiting for ssl.gstatic..." and eventually "Something went wrong" as before. And no noticeable improvement at other sites.

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Re: Google Mesh WiFi, More Information

Unread post by moonbob69 » 2022-07-28, 09:08

I've noticed something that could be diagnostic. At futurequest.net/forums/..., in-page links (to a new or older page) have the usual long "waiting for..." delays, but editing the URL to change the "page=n" value loads immediately. Can looking at the page code help in determining what the difference is between how these two requests are sent?

Copying a URL and pasting into a new tab doesn't work if that URL had already not loaded in a previous tab. Does this have something to do with how PM caches outgoing requests (doesn't actually send if it thinks it was already sent)?

And for the record as to whether the AC-1304's and the Google software/setup are to blame, using this same computer and PM has no problems at all using a different WiFi connection.

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Re: Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-07-28, 09:46

moonbob69 wrote:
2022-07-03, 09:45
The owner, although not an IT professional, prides themselves with being tech-literate and customized the setup.
Well it is quite possible they made a mistake when customizing the setup. Setting up a multi-AP wireless network is tricky to get right, even for IT professionals, and especially if you start messing with wifi parameters like the preamble and advanced channel configuration you can get a lot of packet loss due to the inherent collision-avoidance mechanisms of 802.x (in short, you can have multiple APs all trying to "keep the channel clear for the other"). You could effectively be causing a "race condition" between the two units and bogus routing as a result. That can't be somehow "fixed" on the browser side since it's 2 layers deeper in the topography.

I suggest the owner tosses all custom configuration and resets to factory, and go from there, carefully changing one thing at a time and not changing anything they aren't 100% familiar with how they work. Don't just rely on one-liner "help" tooltip descriptions of functions that GUIs have.
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Re: Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by moonbob69 » 2022-07-28, 10:38

The owners won't admit to any problem unless I can tell them exactly what it is. The owners of wifi TV's, phones, and other laptops don't complain of any problem. Knowing how PM is written, do you see how the above URL editing would indicate what PM is doing in the two cases? There also might be something about errors in memory management in my laptop that results in different code paths, that results in PM thinking a request was sent but it never was. (A word-processing application has screen errors indicating a memory problem that doesn't affect the document and so has not been corrected.) But I don't see how any error that results in a request not being issued by PM not being a problem with other networks.

As a work around, can one identify the time outs for different requests that are probably in about:config? If they were shortened, that might be the same thing as my STOP/RELOAD method, which only sometimes works (because it is reloading everything). I found only one setting, (reduced from 300 sec to 2 sec) which hasn't made much difference.

A little off-topic, can you tell me how to get "Browser Console" to show actual times requests were made (to match up with a server owner, to see if GETs arrived) and actual elapsed times? (Also how to save or log that window.)

Thanks.

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Re: Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-07-28, 13:49

Well, you can take my CompTIA Network+ and several decades of network administration backed advice or you can leave it.
It's not possible to troubleshoot unknown-configured APs without having all the details, and even then some heavily modified configuration may look sane in isolation but have bad interop with another AP. it may even be physical location interference patterns, especially if they are configured to chat on the same channel for the different mesh nodes.
I don't have a crystal ball allowing me to see what all they did. If they refuse to use normal practices (i.e. using normal troubleshooting steps, including resetting to a known-good confgiuration) then there's nothing to be done. I hope they get it solved!
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Re: Google Mesh WiFi, in-page href

Unread post by moonbob69 » 2022-07-31, 08:00

In the page mentioned above, where the URL shown is "...forums/showthread.php?t=27620&page=2", and a link shown in Page Source is href="showthread.php?t=27620&page=3", clicking this link results in "waiting for ..." delays (I don't wait 10 minutes to see if it ever loads). But editing the shown URL in the address bar to change "page=2" to "page=n" (works for any new page), loads immediately.
Question is, when PM sends that request from the shown page, how is that different from the edited URL (which I assume is treated as an entirely unrelated new page) in terms of caching, conditional GET requests etc?

Can a LAN confuse the requests/responses in some way that PM doesn't realize it got a response?

This problem also occurs at times when LAN (wifi) traffic should be very light, and doesn't correlate to heavy traffic, so its hard to see how actual wifi performance/setup could produce the problem.

I tried setting web content cache =0 but didn't produce noticable improvement. Does PM go thru the same process of checking page elements against cache for changes, even if content cache is set to 0?

Sometimes the "waiting for..." is ...facebook.com, and the new page is viewable but has long wait to actually be done.

Is there any normal retry behavior that involves changed ports or protocols that the LAN could be interferiing with?

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Re: Google Mesh WiFi

Unread post by Moonchild » 2022-07-31, 09:19

There are some subtle differences between using navigation events and entering a new URL, but that shouldn't affect traffic through a router unless that router does more than just routing traffic and actually interferes with data transfer (which would be a strike against Google, there).
Once again though there's no way to say definitively what is going on without using a normal troubleshooting procedure or using advanced traffic analysis (e.g. using wireshark or what not). of note I will not be going that route (even if I can) since it's not my job.
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