TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

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TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby Pale as the Moon » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:53 pm

This is meant as a proposal of how to help another project while also solving the lacking expertise when it comes to Mac development around here.

The developer behind TenFourFox, a Firefox re-build that aims to keep support for Mac OS X 10.4 & 10.5 PowerPC-based systems has been thinking about a possible cooperation with other Gecko-based forks. For technical reasons he is unable to create a Firefox variant without the XUL environment. If we decide to cooperate with him we could give him an opportunity to solve this issue while possibly adding Mac expertise to the Pale Moon team. This is badly needed, as can bee seen in the persisting bugs that are still plaguing the Pale Moon Mac build:

- viewtopic.php?f=41&t=15130
- viewtopic.php?f=41&t=15254

Here is what the TenFourFox developer has stated (April 20th, 2017):
By the way, TenFourFox "FPR0" has been successfully uploaded to Github. Build instructions to follow and the first FPR1 beta should be out in about two to three weeks. I'm also cogitating over a blog post discussing not only us but other Gecko forks (SeaMonkey, Pale Moon, etc.) which for a variety of reasons don't want to follow Mozilla into the unclear misty haze of a post-XUL world. To a first approximation our reasons are generally technical and theirs are primarily philosophical, but we both end up doing some of the same work and we should talk about that as an ecosystem. More later.

source: http://tenfourfox.blogspot.de/2017/04/t ... -back.html

I believe such a cooperation would be most beneficial for both projects and their respective objectives. Any thoughts?

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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby Pale as the Moon » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:28 pm

I've asked the same question in their support forum: http://tenfourfox.tenderapp.com/discuss ... l-scenario

Their GitHub repository: https://github.com/classilla/tenfourfox

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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby New Tobin Paradigm » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:36 pm

As a Core Mission point.. The Pale Moon project does not intend to support ancient hardware or operating systems. That is exactly the core mission statement of TenFourFox.. They are mutually exclusive.

Anyone who bothered to read either website would know these points.

Off-topic:
I love how everyone loves to hold me to their standards of worthless platitudes and not hurting anyone's feelings at any cost but when I hold others to the standard of common sense and enlightened learning let alone simple reading and comprehension.. I instantly vilified. Can't wait to see what the next backlash entails.
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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby Pale as the Moon » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:41 pm

Matt A Tobin wrote:As a Core Mission point.. The Pale Moon project does not intend to support ancient hardware or operating systems. That is exactly the core mission statement of TenFourFox.. They are mutually exclusive.


Ok but they did this all on their own without any help on Mozilla's part until now. I don't think that they would be any kind of burden. They actually got Gecko 45 up and running on PowerPC Macs, which is impressive. Gecko 45 is actually newer than what Pale Moon 27 was originally based on (Gecko 38), so it would not be beyond them to get Pale Moon running on these OSes.

And they would add substantial Mac expertise to the team, which it is apparently in need of. Why do you rule out cooperation so quickly while it is relatively clear that almost no work would amount for the PM team?

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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby New Tobin Paradigm » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:58 pm

Because, experience with OS X 10.4 on PowerPCs would offer nothing to the Pale Moon project. Any contributed code could compromise our codebase on actually supported systems and hardware at worse and and at best complicate and bloat build configuration and code.

There is nothing stopping them from using us as an upstream but that really doesn't equate to true cooperation.
Last edited by New Tobin Paradigm on Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby Pale as the Moon » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:08 pm

Matt A Tobin wrote:Because, experience with OS X 10.4 on PowerPCs would offer nothing to the Pale Moon project. Any contributed code could compromise our codebase on actually supported systems and hardware at worse and and at best complicate and bloat build configuration and code.

There is nothing stopping them from using us as an upstream but that really doesn't equate to true cooperation.


Matt, as it stands you need someone who has Mac expertise cooperating with the team. Their expertise is not limited to PowerPC, but also stretches to Intel Mac. Sure, Mr. Schlansker (sugis) is currently creating Mac builds, but he has already explained multiple times that he is not able to fix very severe issues plaguing the build. The Pale Moon team should be interested in fixing those bugs. I was just talking about giving the TenFourFox team a share in the platform you are planning to create in exchange for some Intel Mac support for the Pale Moon team. It seems beneficial to me.

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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby New Tobin Paradigm » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:10 pm

I dunno why you think I am making the decisions around here.. I don't.. But I already know what the outcome will be.. As for sugis.. That is another matter all together.. You simply don't have all the facts.

Also, exactly how are a bunch of PowerPC obsessed folks gonna help with a totally different architecture that is 12 years newer than what they are currently targeting?

Explain how that works to me when you can't even address me properly.
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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby Pale as the Moon » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:57 pm

Matt A Tobin wrote:I dunno why you think I am making the decisions around here.. I don't.. But I already know what the outcome will be.. As for sugis.. That is another matter all together.. You simply don't have all the facts.

Also, exactly how are a bunch of PowerPC obsessed folks gonna help with a totally different architecture that is 12 years newer than what they are currently targeting?

Explain how that works to me when you can't even address me properly.


What facts do I need to know in addition to those already presented?

1) There are severe bugs that are plaguing the Mac build.
2) sugis has already announced that he doesn't have the expertise to fix them.
3) Moonchild has already stated that Mac development is not within his skills.

So... Who do you think is going to fix these bugs? They are not going to fix themselves, after all. You need someone with OS X development skills.

TenFourFox is a hobby project of the dev which he created to show the world what is still possible with PowerPC Macs. He also stated that he has Intel Mac experience as well. Just because he is developing for a very old platform as a hobby does not mean that he is living behind the moon, Matt.

By the way: Addressing somebody with his/her forename is completely within scope, especially in communities with rather informal tone such as this one. Even addressing someone with his/her surname only is not an insult. There is no right to be addressed with full name, which in many cases (such as this one) just sounds ridiculous. I will address you within the realm of politeness, but I will definitely not give you special treatment for which there is no justification.

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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby satrow » Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:47 pm

Pale as the Moon wrote:So... Who do you think is going to fix these bugs? They are not going to fix themselves, after all. You need someone with OS X development skills.

TenFourFox is a hobby project of the dev which he created to show the world what is still possible with PowerPC Macs. He also stated that he has Intel Mac experience as well.


I'm no expert but I suggest that development skills required for OS X x86 and OS X PowerPC ( OS X 10.4 latest = XP era) might be somewhat different and may also occasionally require an accessible PPC machine for testing.

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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby New Tobin Paradigm » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:50 pm

Satrow is quite correct. It would not actually solve anything but would bloat the codebase and create twice the work at best and at worst compromise the code integrate for our project.

  • Have you actually ran a diff between TenfourFox and Stock Mozilla?
  • Do you know anything about the changes they made which on one hand haphazardly disable vast chunks of Platform code while modifying other chunks all over the place?
  • Do you have even the slightest knowledge of any of the code that is changed?
  • Do you even know that 12 year old operating systems on a totally different processor architecture despite having a historical linage?
  • Are you aware that many of the touched aspects of the codebase are actually exceedingly fragile and one mistake can affect more than a tiny minatory OF a tiny minority.

You also mention that this is apparently just a hobby for them.. Frankly, it shows. Pale Moon and the operations over here are not merely a hobby for many of us past and present.

Off-topic:
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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby Terryphi » Mon May 01, 2017 9:07 am

Matt A Tobin wrote:
Off-topic:
You will address me by the following preferred forms: "Tobin" optionally prefixed with either "Captain" or Dalek", "Matt A. Tobin", or "New Tobin Paradigm". There are no other valid forms.


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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby Moonchild » Mon May 01, 2017 11:22 am

as previously stated:
10-4 fox can use us as upstream if they want. Like any other group that wants to build for specific, non-supported architectures and operating systems, they can use our platform to build from. I don't see any reciprocal value in a partnership here; they won't bring anything useful to the table, and integrating code for both a different processor and O.S. is going to be much more complex than maintaining a branch of our code with the necessary changes by themselves and using Pale Moon as upstream.

If anything, we need to start removing code that is obsolete or unused to slim the core down, not adding more complexity to bloat it for something we don't target. And no, I don't think targeting PPC machines in 2017 is something that should be done by anyone but hobbyists. Same for obsolete operating systems.
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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby Pale as the Moon » Mon May 01, 2017 11:31 am

@Moonchild: But how are you going to address the Mac issues then? The developer of TenFourFox could be quite helpful on this front to be honest.

This is what he has stated:
Their response is somewhat disappointing, but if they feel it doesn't offer them anything, that's their call, I suppose. The idea would have been to jointly help backport security patches and in return to offer a baseline Mac build that works. That said, if their major interest is only current Macs, that does certainly clash with our priorities because it would be unacceptable to us (and me) to run a project that doesn't support 10.4.

Conversely, though, we don't gain anything by using them as an upstream. Without going into great detail, Goanna is too different from Gecko to be beneficial to us, and we would lose some features by using Pale Moon as a code base.

I do think there is some fundamental misunderstanding on Pale Moon's part of what TenFourFox actually does (I've lurked periodically in the forums); as you know, it's not merely a port to restore compatibility (which is itself a big job), but also value-adds other PowerPC features such as a PowerPC JavaScript JIT and AltiVec support for VPX and other media codecs, and all that requires substantial additional development. The real question is whether they think that's worth it to them and clearly they don't, so that's that.

I guess it was a nice thought, anyway.

source: http://tenfourfox.tenderapp.com/discuss ... l-scenario

Maybe you should tell him this over there, Moonchild. It would take you not more than one post. However, this will probably mean certain Mac-specific issues will never be fixed. Would not be that great for the Mac userbase. I would really like to see at least some kind of agreement here, as it would be in the best interest of the Mac users.

Matt A Tobin wrote:You will address me by the following preferred forms: "Tobin" optionally prefixed with either "Captain" or Dalek", "Matt A. Tobin", or "New Tobin Paradigm". There are no other valid forms.


No I won't, Matt. Get over it.

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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby JodyThornton » Mon May 01, 2017 12:25 pm

Pale as the Moon wrote:No I won't, Matt. Get over it.


Finally, someone addressing Tobin the way he ought to be addressed.

I only respond to this Tobin because you wonder why your vilified. It's not your lack of common sense, but lack of demeanor. No one should ever speak with a lack of cordiality that the rest of us try to engage in. Sure, I've been direct (and maybe even insulting at times) but we are a somewhat familiar community here. As such, we should act that way; friendly and courteous. I may complain about one thing, but I'll help somebody else with the next (and with a smile).

Try it - it rids of the high blood pressure.
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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby New Tobin Paradigm » Mon May 01, 2017 12:48 pm

Off-topic:
So in the meantime you will continue to demean and insult me and pat anyone on the back who does the same.. Not very cordial if you ask me.

Improper use of my name and addressing me in a manor contrary to my own preferences and wishes is insulting. So when you do it, that is precisely what you are doing it. Most people have kindly opted to respect my wishes though some have not.

It is not uncommon for hippocrites who call me out on the specific way I interact or present my self to also in the same breath disrespect, dismiss, and vilify me. Just because what I say isn't coated in several layers of sugar and syrup doesn't mean it is invalid or that I don't have reasons for saying precisely what I do. Many claim to be friendly or easy going or accepting and yet I don't see it.

Perhaps the problem isn't just with me or my attitude or my abrasive bluntness. Maybe just maybe it is at least in part a problem with some of you. I say this because there are many people over in IRC land where things normally go pretty alright and some people here in forumville where it isn't an issue.
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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby Pale as the Moon » Mon May 01, 2017 1:30 pm

Matt A Tobin wrote:So in the meantime you will continue to demean and insult me and pat anyone on the back who does the same.. Not very cordial if you ask me.

Improper use of my name and addressing me in a manor contrary to my own preferences and wishes is insulting. So when you do it, that is precisely what you are doing it. Most people have kindly opted to respect my wishes though some have not.

It is not uncommon for hippocrites who call me out on the specific way I interact or present my self to also in the same breath disrespect, dismiss, and vilify me. Just because what I say isn't coated in several layers of sugar and syrup doesn't mean it is invalid or that I don't have reasons for saying precisely what I do. Many claim to be friendly or easy going or accepting and yet I don't see it.

Perhaps the problem isn't just with me or my attitude or my abrasive bluntness. Maybe just maybe it is at least in part a problem with some of you. I say this because there are many people over in IRC land where things normally go pretty alright and some people here in forumville where it isn't an issue.

Matt, referring to you with your forename is in no way an improper use of your name. Everyone here except you is content with being addressed by forename. What would be inappropriate is the case in which I would make an exception just for you. There is no sane reason for doing so. You are far from any normal manner of conversation, Matt. This indeed seems to be your real paradigm. If you are unable to see how your behavior vastly differs from everyone else here, I don't know what to say. Despite you calling us "hypocrites", which is a clear insult (not just "blunt"), I ask you one last time to find back to a respectful manner of conversation. Otherwise I don't see a point in talking with you any further.

@Moonchild: Would you be so kind to stop this off-topic embarrassment (bluntly spoken) by closing the thread? You have already answered on-topic and this is all I wanted to discuss. Thanks for your input.

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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby half-moon » Mon May 01, 2017 2:23 pm

Off-topic:
If Tobin wants to be called Tobin, I'll respect that. If somebody wanted me to call them "Lord of the Pineapples!", then I would be willing to do so.

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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby Thehandyman1957 » Mon May 01, 2017 2:58 pm

Matt A Tobin wrote:Perhaps the problem isn't just with me or my attitude or my abrasive bluntness.


Off-topic:
Oh, it is. And it has been shown to you so many times. But it makes no difference to you. You sit in your ivory tower full of pride and look down on the plebs here with derision. Your attitude and arrogance is a stain on this site.

You don't have to
sugar coat
things to be polite. But you don't even seem to know what that is.

I can't even count how many people have quit dealing with this forum because of your arrogant and prideful comments let alone the ones you have had banned because of trivial things like "kizo07" who did not deserve to be banned. And yes, I know what happened.

Moonchild is just as smart and gifted as you but, does not treat others with the disrespect you do.

This site used to be a joy, but it is not any longer and your snideful http://www.thefreedictionary.com/snide comments are the biggest reason for that. :thumbdown:
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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby MGA74 » Mon May 01, 2017 5:52 pm

To Matt A. Tobin

If you object to being called Matt, why not change your username to Tobin?

Grant

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Re: TenFourFox cooperation... A way to solve our Mac development issues?

Postby Moonchild » Tue May 02, 2017 2:52 am

Enough Unnecessary bashing of a fellow community member. You have all been warned, including Tobin for fueling the fire.

This talk is both off-topic here and nobody needs to be publicly ganged up on, no matter how abrasive they may be in your opinion.
I'm putting some folks on cooldown. When you come back, if you have an issue with Tobin, take it up with him directly in PM or on IRC and talk things out as adults.

(For the record, everyone involved in this has been warned and temporarily suspended. I hate having to be a police officer; I'd rather be a host with people showing acceptable restraint in how they participate on the forum. Please do better in the future?)
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