Start portal discussion thread

[mikeysc]

[comment removed because only Tobin's opinion matters]

[New Tobin Paradigm]

I don't use start pages/portals. What I don't get is why should any [reputable] browser developers include this type of preset at all? Why can't users just set their homepage to what they want? IMO, we don't need the developers telling us where to go (haha!). I don't need Speed Dial either, and especially not one with ads. Are bookmarks and home page just too boring or is the perceived need for change driven by touchscreen users? Why not focus on browser functionality and just let users choose what pages they visit.

That is a very short sighted and narrow view. Just because one person may not want or need something doesn't mean someone else doesn't. Though that being said it isn't like any of these things you have been griping over lately aren't a matter of choice. Default configuration must serve the widest range of the intended target users of a product. Something has to be default and recommended.

It is when you get into situations where that is the ONLY choice then your recent resistance could start to have merit. However, in this and just about every previous encounter with your opinions recently it is about preference and those preferences are a choice of the user and easily changed.

Perhaps, you should consider that next time something like this catches your eye.

Additionally, if you had been paying attention (which you should be) basic improvements are always on going.

[Moonchild]

I prefer to just use the start page with just pale moon icon and your default search provider

It won't affect about:home, just the Pale Moon Start page.

I don't use start pages/portals. What I don't get is why should any [reputable] browser developers include this type of preset at all? Why can't users just set their homepage to what they want?

Have you even used Pale Moon?
You can set it to whatever the hell you want. In fact, changing the static page to this setup will allow you to actually do that to a much larger degree.

IMO, we don't need the developers telling us where to go (haha!).

And I never have. The Pale Moon Start page offers suggestions. It offers multiple alternatives in those suggestions for similar services, even. So I do not understand your complaint. You have full freedom to have whichever page, portal, productivity tool or maybe just a porn image as your home page (if that's your thing). I don't tell anyone where to go.

I don't need Speed Dial either, and especially not one with ads.

Ads in a speed dial page is terrible. That is purely a Firefox thing and will never be in Pale Moon.
Speed dial in itself is useful to have a quick graphical overview (and specific locations if you pin pages) of your most-used websites. that's YOUR preferred sites in YOUR order

Are bookmarks and home page just too boring or is the perceived need for change driven by touchscreen users? Why not focus on browser functionality and just let users choose what pages they visit.

You don't seem to understand the reasoning behind a start page which offers actual starting points for browsing. The new page will allow you to have any bookmark to any site you want on your start page. That will be all your choice, as opposed to suggestions I've made based on user feedback, general popularity, and geographical distribution of users (and a bit of personal preference mixed in).
The other side of the argument is: Why have an empty page looking at you when you can have all your preferred places on the web on it? What about immediately having top news articles of your preferred newscast on it as well? What about the weather? etc etc. just the tip of the iceberg with what will be possible.

Nobody says you must use it. It's your choice. Your browser does what you want it to do. If that means using a blank page and a bookmarks menu or sidebar, then that's fine! If you prefer a customizable portal, also great! If you just want the current static page, nothing will change either since the new default page will have all the same stuff. So, please, help me understand in what way this would be negative?

[win7-7]

Honestly I don't see problem with new Start page/Portal. It seems like improvement over old page. I personally use both bookmark toolbar and menu. Now this new Start page could potentially allow me take some old bookmarks off from bookmark toolbar. This new Start page also seems more professional than old one in my option. Also this is user choice. Nobody is forcing you to use new Start page. You can still use blank tab or whatever you want to use. Personally I like upcoming changes to Start page.

[mikeysc]

You can set it to whatever the hell you want.

Of course, but power users are always stuck undoing all the defaults that are set for the computer-challenged masses.

In fact, changing the static page to this setup will allow you to actually do that to a much larger degree.

I understand that and that aspect of it is positive. But it comes at the cost of potentially more tracking and ads.

And I never have. The Pale Moon Start page offers suggestions. It offers multiple alternatives in those suggestions for similar services, even. So I do not understand your complaint.

It loads start.palemoon.org now after install and reset, and I assume that is where start.me will be inserted. The current one is not as bad as some but still see no need for it or the new one. I guess a power user could edit prefs.js before running it the first time but that puts on the defensive, undoing all the junk.

Speed dial in itself is useful to have a quick graphical overview (and specific locations if you pin pages) of your most-used websites. that's YOUR preferred sites in YOUR order

I hated when they added that in Opera (which had it first) and always disable it even if it is customizable. Not being customizable would be even worse.

You don't seem to understand the reasoning behind a start page which offers actual starting points for browsing. The new page will allow you to have any bookmark to any site you want on your start page.

I understand completely. For people who can't or want do their own, and for generating ad/click revenue.

The other side of the argument is: Why have an empty page looking at you when you can have all your preferred places on the web on it?

A clean slate rather than someone else's suggestion. These things by default always have a lot of junk I would rather not see.

What about immediately having top news articles of your preferred newscast on it as well? What about the weather? etc etc. just the tip of the iceberg with what will be possible.

Yes, they can be customized to taste and that's good, but does it need to be preconfigured? Why can't users find those sites for themselves? Almost all the bundled options, whether included with an OS, browser, or other software, are marketing crap. My Toshiba came loaded with it. Windows does now too. If it is necessary to support a free program like PM, then it can be tolerated. But if it isn't for revenue, better to leave it out.

Nobody says you must use it. It's your choice. Your browser does what you want it to do.

But it's same old fight we've had in Opera and Firefox - the power users are second classs and have to do the customization to undo all the extra "features" added for less knowledgeable users. I'd be happy to have a geeky browser that wasn't targeted at the masses - know of one? But, no, I do not want to have to resort to doing my own custom build. Although, I might help out if someone else does.

[x-15a2]

I like the concept behind the new design and I think it looks great.

My only issue is with the default categories and their content, specifically the "Social" section has several non-social entries like Microsoft, Yahoo! and the ones for eMail. For social, I'd suggest removing those and adding Reddit, Pinterest, Tumbler, Instagram and Vine. I'd create an email section and include more online email hosts.

I know that the current page is a "proof of concept" but wanted to throw in my 2 bitcoins nonetheless.

RE:

Of course, but power users are always stuck undoing all the defaults that are set for the computer-challenged masses.

Your comment is self-answering... it's correct to go after the masses. That's why 10 lane outer-belts are constructed around large metropolitan areas, to serve the largest number of people where they are.

[Moonchild]

I have full control over the content of the static start page. That was one of my requirements for this partnership, so I can (and will) reorganize things a little better before it goes live.

[Moonchild]

But it comes at the cost of potentially more tracking and ads.

I understand completely. For people who can't or want do their own, and for generating ad/click revenue.

You seem to have a problem with me keeping Pale Moon sustainable? Of course the ads are there for revenue. I need to have something to supplement the support I get from donations because it simply doesn't pay for itself otherwise. You are using a free product with additional free services. Just because it's Open Source doesn't mean I automatically have deep pockets or a mountain of cash in my bank account to pay for everything, so there are a few unobtrusive ads as part of the business model I use. But that is not the main reason the start page is there. The start page is there because it provides a starting point for new users and new browsing sessions. With the move to start.me, this "starting point" concept is crystallized out further.

The defaults in any application are there to serve the largest group of the user base, by definition. If you want to have a browser that is out of the box exactly the way you want it, you have two options: (1) adjust what you want, or (2) create your own product. Part of being a power user is that you go in and configure new software in-depth the moment you get it. Power users, by definition almost, don't use defaults, because they want to fine-tune everything to their individual needs. Demanding that power user defaults become application defaults is like asking to remove ketchup from all fast food restaurants just because you don't like it, while most people do.

[squarefractal]

As far as the page design goes, please at least have a short URL (the /p/xxxxx/pale-moon-start looks very unprofessional), and you could also have the breadcrumbs hidden. Apart from those things, everything else is fine by me.

Though I'm curious as to why one must log in to this service provider to have customisation of the page? Simply store all the data in a cookie, or if 4 KB isn't enough, maybe you should look into local storage?

The start page is there because it provides a starting point for new users and new browsing sessions.

And interestingly, the same could be said about the Mozilla about:newtab sponsored tiles. (Please don't say that its its somehow evil for a corporation to make money.)

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Please read the orginal announcement.

[squarefractal]

Please read the orginal announcement.

Good to know that it is already underway Looks like I need to read the announcements more carefully.

[New Tobin Paradigm]

[superA]

In my opinion the truth is somewhere..in the middle.
I fully agree with mikeysc.
I cant find it as an ''improovment''.Dont like adds and tracking dont like suggestions,registrations,i dont even like the cookie that is set in my browser when i open this startpage.
From the other hand MoonChild s dicision was very reasonable.
Developers must suggest what the average users want and use.Like it or not,FB,Twitter e.t.c. are the most common sites everyone use today...and of course what MC said,that someone is got to pay for this product is non-negotiable,also a lot of user will find it very usefull.
After all,user can use whatever he wants for startpage,it is his dicision.
I use PM over FF,not only because it is a better product,but also because the developers never lied,just wish that this,will never change.

[New Tobin Paradigm]

The bottom line is in this if you do nothing .. nothing is different except layout vs what we already have... banner ad et all.. For those users who wanted more they will be accomidated.. for users who have no need then it is irrelevant.

I do not understand the resistance to this.

[squarefractal]

First of all I should begin by stating that I don't understand why people are complaining. Ads were there on the previous start page and will continue to be there on the new start page, the change being that the new page will be more customisable. But there are people who are refusing to understand and removing their signatures (and maybe leaving the product) in retailiation.

Secondly, it's not as if open-source developers don't have personal bills to pay or get to run servers or buy hardware for free. The money has to come from somewhere and except for the major open-source projects, almost every other project fails to meet their funding goals. So that money has to come from somewhere. And unfortunately this has to come from website ads. I assume even Moonchild will agree to the statement that ads suck (both from a bandwidth, privacy, and security point of view) but its the only option. Maybe if more people would donate, then developers wouldn't have to resort to displaying ads on their sites.

Speaking for myself, ads generally remain blocked on my setup, but when I have to visit sites without such setup I occasionally click on the ads. Obscure form of donating but at least it does not affect me monetarily

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Maybe people don't realize that the site, forums, start page has ads because they are blocked so they think it is new or something when mentioned. We don't force ads in the product and hell we have an ad blocker that doesn't do automatic whitelisting of any kind.

I do suggest those who support the project whitelist project pages to help support it but it remains the pure choice of the user.

But they must realize that this is by no means new. So quit inventing problems or reasons to freak out when very little to nothing has actually changed.

[Moonchild]

Once more, and with feeling, before I feel like a broken record:

• If you do nothing, then nothing will change.
  You will have the same kind of static start page you already have now, with a search choice of Google or DDG, and quick links to common and popular websites across different disciplines (more than there were, actually).
  There will be the same amount and same type of ad (a single classic banner at the bottom of the page), necessary to pay my bills.
• If you currently don't use the start page, then this change will have absolutely no impact for you.
• If you customize the page and take advantage of the enhancements we're working on, you will be able to do so in 2 ways:
  1. By creating an account, which will permanently store this information in the cloud for your use across devices and browsers (also non-Pale Moon).
  2. Anonymously, where it will become tied to a cookie specific in your browser (more details about this will follow in an separate, explanatory topic!)

Please understand that start.me is a Service Provider and I am a Client. They make it possible for me, through a partnership, to offer Pale Moon users a customizable start page on their infrastructure and through their framework (which will inherently have a slightly cryptic URL, but who knows, this can possibly be improved in the future?), while letting me keep control over the static page content (pre-customization, starting point) in a sane (and actually extremely supportive of FOSS!) revenue model so I don't lose my current financial support I get from the start page.

Half of the discussion here so far has been about "ads" and "tracking". That's off-topic, because, once more, that has not changed and will not change. If you don't like cookies, then I'm quite sure you can use the static start page without them.

[michieldewit]

...which will inherently have a slightly cryptic URL, but who knows, this can possibly be improved in the future?

The cryptic URL actually is a security feature. Rather than embedding a readable (and sequential) ID in the URL, we use this hash that prevents 'guessing' the URL of pages that you choose to share with friends, but wouldn't want the world to see. For 100% open pages, like the Pale Moon START page, we are working on more 'appealing' URLs.

[Moonchild]

The cryptic URL actually is a security feature. Rather than embedding a readable (and sequential) ID in the URL, we use this hash that prevents 'guessing' the URL of pages that you choose to share with friends, but wouldn't want the world to see. For 100% open pages, like the Pale Moon START page, we are working on more 'appealing' URLs.

For customized pages it is indeed a security feature - what I was talking about was the static page, which is the default URL users see for the public page, even if they can go there with simply http://palemoon.start.me -- and it's great to hear you're working on making that more appealing

[lyceus]

Btw, thank you for the start.me idea but as Moonchild says this is not a forced thing. So I will move to a blank page for my start page.