Writing posts

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palem
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Writing posts

Unread post by palem » 2021-06-02, 23:30

I see that my last 2 posts, which were a help to other users, have been deleted without any explanation.

Please restore these posts and respect my time, which I spent writing them and helping others.
Otherwise writing anything on this forum would not make sense.

New Tobin Paradigm

Re: Writing posts

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-06-03, 00:18

But you don't help users. You subvert them AND us with your garbage "help". As near as I can tell you are only one step removed from being reddit trash. Persist and you can relocate permanently to that particular dump.

tl;dr We have just about had enough of you. Tread lightly.

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Admin
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Re: Writing posts

Unread post by Admin » 2021-06-03, 00:38

You want an explanation? Here you go:
Two posts which consisted of a dangerous (and project-damaging) hack script edit and a duplicate post of that in another thread, that were reported to staff by users.

Your time is respected if and when you don't set everyone else up for wasting their time.
Did you know that moral outrage triggers the pleasure centers of the brain? It's unlikely you can actually get addicted to outrage, but there is plausible evidence that you can become strongly predisposed to it.
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p002w557/episodes/downloads - "The cooperative species" and "Behaving better online"
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palem
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Re: Writing posts

Unread post by palem » 2021-06-03, 08:01

1. My post that was recently deleted, was a help for a user that asked about translation extension, because as a result of poorly thought out decisions of PM Team service extensions are not currently available to PM users.
(And maybe I'm wrong here and Tobin will tell us how users can use translation extensions?)

2. I started using PM about 9 years ago, when it was a fast browser, running on every website, with a large number of FF extensions and a help was obtained on a friendly Forum.
Unfortunately, as a result of subsequent erroneous PM Team decisions, current PM:
- does not work on an increasing number of websites (most banking etc.),
- the browser is not fully functional (no Translation, Password Extensions, etc.)
- is the slowest browser (of the 9 tested)
- and the Forum is unfriendly and censorship prevails here.

3. Because I have a sentiment for PM and I wish PM as best, I hope that the main person in PM will eventually recognize that the current situation is not beneficial for PM and introduces the necessary changes to eliminate all the above-mentioned negative factors to make PM great again.

4. I was born in a country with censorship and I am sensitive to any attempts to limit the speech of others who do not think the same as the administrators and moderators of this forum. Therefore, until the situation changes, I suspend my activity in this forum.

Good luck :)

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jobbautista9
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Re: Writing posts

Unread post by jobbautista9 » 2021-06-03, 08:10

1-3. Stop being condescending.

4. This forum is not a place of free speech. As per rule 8a: "This is not a democracy. You are in my house, and you are my guests. Please behave yourself accordingly."

I planned to come out of my break tomorrow, but damn you like ruining other people's vacations.
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New Tobin Paradigm

Re: Writing posts

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2021-06-03, 08:27

palem wrote:
2021-06-03, 08:01
poorly thought out decisions of PM Team
How can a decision be poorly thought out when we have been planning this since late 2014? We built the infrastructure, provided the service, did everything we could to inform and warn and plead with the userbase to get moving on this. We held back and tried to put this off for far longer than was even considered reasonable.

We have the greatest chance now more than ever to thrive against all odds and you would take that away from us and condemn everyone to a slow lingering death march where the majority of user engagement consists of yet another extension is broken and a world of stalled development in perpetual fear of breaking an extension that has been abandoned for five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten years.

Is that what you and your ilk are advocating for, really? If so, why did you stay after 25 came out or Tycho or UXP? All those huge leaps forward busted extension after extension and where were we in Feb? 240 extensions. JUST 240 Pale Moon extensions on the Add-ons Site in five years.

Where was Firefox five years after it's creation extension wise? Thousands. The same thousands that constantly busted each release. So after five years of our own GUID when Pale Moon wasn't Firefox and never would be again 240. Then we lost 20 JustOff Extensions in his manipulated ragehack and 30 some half-assed illegal riiis extensions in the audit. We are NOW sitting at 263 after ONLY a few months.

THAT is what our poorly thought out decision has done. And as for those 50 JustOff and riiis extensions.. WELL THOSE ARE EASY PICKINGS AREN'T THEY?!

So why are you here crying like a babybitch and not whipping out 50 easy as fucking hell replacements, hmm?
palem wrote:
2021-06-03, 08:01
Therefore, until the situation changes, I suspend my activity in this forum.
People are so stupid, why are y'all so stupid?

Get better problems, I swear to God that y'all want 'em, you're so dumb.

People so stupid, people so dumb, people so boo-hoo, wah-wah-wah.

Get better issues, we're gonna run out of tissues, it's so dumb.
Last edited by New Tobin Paradigm on 2021-06-03, 09:09, edited 4 times in total.

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Nuck-TH
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Re: Writing posts

Unread post by Nuck-TH » 2021-06-03, 08:50

palem wrote:
2021-06-03, 08:01
1. My post that was recently deleted, was a help for a user that asked about translation extension, because as a result of poorly thought out decisions of PM Team service extensions are not currently available to PM users.
(And maybe I'm wrong here and Tobin will tell us how users can use translation extensions?)
As i understand, making/forking service extension is discouraged unless you dead set to support it and adapt it to changes in service and not bail out on first problem that occurs.
palem wrote:
2021-06-03, 08:01
2. I started using PM about 9 years ago, when it was a fast browser, running on every website, with a large number of FF extensions and a help was obtained on a friendly Forum.
Well, welcome to modern web. Web changes, not browser is made to be worse.
palem wrote:
2021-06-03, 08:01
- does not work on an increasing number of websites (most banking etc.),
You can thank google for this and their enormous manpower that makes chasing their arbitrary changes and extensions to standarts nigh impossible. Especially when pretty much no one(with rare exceptions) helps.
palem wrote:
2021-06-03, 08:01
- the browser is not fully functional (no Translation, Password Extensions, etc.)
The browser is fully functional. All XUL related APIs and functionality is intact. Even Jetpack is there, it is for now just strongly discouraged to use it for new extensions. Extensions extend application and must be adapted to it, not other way around. Project never promised that extensions as-is will work forever, but rather that APIs and XUL will be intact and functional as they were or improved.
palem wrote:
2021-06-03, 08:01
- is the slowest browser (of the 9 tested)
Considering that all of them are Chrome, it is second fast(or third if you think Firefox is different enough from Chrome, which it isn't anymore). Quite far from 10th place. Also, Chrome and FF sucks at certain things that browsers of the past handled(and UXP still does) easily(like very long html documents).
Last edited by Nuck-TH on 2021-06-03, 10:56, edited 1 time in total.

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athenian200
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Re: Writing posts

Unread post by athenian200 » 2021-06-03, 10:20

palem wrote:
2021-06-03, 08:01
1. My post that was recently deleted, was a help for a user that asked about translation extension, because as a result of poorly thought out decisions of PM Team service extensions are not currently available to PM users.
Can you elaborate on why you think the Pale Moon team's decisions are "poorly thought out"? That's kind of a serious charge to make against an all-volunteer development team that users have been relying on for a few years now.

The fact that you're currently experiencing inconveniences with certain extensions doesn't mean plans were poorly thought out. The maintainers of the extensions are the ones obligated to remain compatible with the browser, not the other way around. If you're talking about unmaintained extensions, well, technology only moves forward, not backwards. You can't expect something a static target that's standing still to work forever, especially with something that changes as often as web browsers do.
2. I started using PM about 9 years ago, when it was a fast browser, running on every website, with a large number of FF extensions and a help was obtained on a friendly Forum.
Unfortunately, as a result of subsequent erroneous PM Team decisions, current PM:
This is the second time in your post you've made that particular remark, essentially. You clearly have a very low opinion of the Pale Moon team's decisions and planning, but you haven't really justified that opinion, said what you would have done differently and how you would have made it work, or even really shown that the conditions you're talking about are the fault of the team.
- does not work on an increasing number of websites (most banking etc.),
That is because the websites don't target our browser and essentially only develop and test for Blink/WebKit-based browsers. If you want to heavily use websites that were optimized for such browsers, you'll have to either just fire up Microsoft Edge, or download another Blink-based browser of your choice. Specifically, there's a large slew of new standards under the umbrella of WebComponents that are very hard to support and require major changes to the way the CSS engine works. We get pieces here and there, but it's harder than you realize to implement something that big, especially when you're trying not to break older functionality in the process. There was no "decision" that reasonably could have been made that would have avoided this other than to use Blink ourselves. I'm pretty sure most of our users and team would rather just walk away and admit defeat at that point, because one of the main purposes of the project is to create an independent browser with its own engine rather than another Chromium reskin.
- the browser is not fully functional (no Translation, Password Extensions, etc.)
The browser is fully functional with respect to extensions. You can't expect us to keep unmaintained extensions working forever as we attempt to implement support for modern web standards and painstakingly modify how the engine works to accommodate them. As a matter of fact, the desire to avoid breaking older extensions probably held development back for awhile, and took effort away from getting out in front of emerging web standards.
- is the slowest browser (of the 9 tested)
Again, that is because websites are optimized for other browser engines and is outside our control. All we can do is try to keep bringing the browser more inline with what websites expect without compromising security or customization, and that is actually very difficult.
- and the Forum is unfriendly and censorship prevails here.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but do you realize that you could be getting unfriendly responses because you are being somewhat unfriendly and accusatory yourself, implying that there's something wrong in the team's decisions and that you know better? That is rather presumptuous on your part.
3. Because I have a sentiment for PM and I wish PM as best, I hope that the main person in PM will eventually recognize that the current situation is not beneficial for PM and introduces the necessary changes to eliminate all the above-mentioned negative factors to make PM great again.
So, you want all the old extensions to work perfectly, and also to have the browser work well with modern websites, all while remaining secure and independent? I'm not surprised by those expectations, they aren't exactly new. Plenty of users have voiced such sentiments. All of them could come up with that vision, but none of them understand what they're asking. Maybe we could make that happen if someone gave us a few million dollars to put towards hiring full-time developers, but short of that you probably need to adjust your expectations a bit and realize what a complicated piece of software a web browser is and how few programmers work on this project actively.
4. I was born in a country with censorship and I am sensitive to any attempts to limit the speech of others who do not think the same as the administrators and moderators of this forum. Therefore, until the situation changes, I suspend my activity in this forum.
I'm sorry to hear that, but this is really less a freedom of speech issue, and more about stopping people from saying unfair things about our development team, making misleading comments about the browser, and generally getting people to try potentially dangerous hacks that will worsen the quality of their user experience.
"The Athenians, however, represent the unity of these opposites; in them, mind or spirit has emerged from the Theban subjectivity without losing itself in the Spartan objectivity of ethical life. With the Athenians, the rights of the State and of the individual found as perfect a union as was possible at all at the level of the Greek spirit." -- Hegel's philosophy of Mind

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Moonchild
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Re: Writing posts

Unread post by Moonchild » 2021-06-03, 10:34

{accusations}
If you know so much better, then by all means, do it yourself.
I started this project by my lonesome way back when, with no knowledge of the codebase. If I could, then so can anyone else.
We're not stopping anyone else from doing the exact same I did with UXP, Pale Moon, or any of the other FOSS we graciously build and distribute for your benefit in the hope that it's useful.
palem wrote:
2021-06-03, 08:01
the browser is not fully functional (no Translation, Password Extensions, etc.)
The browser is fully functional. If it required extensions to be fully functional then something would be wrong.
You don't need any extensions to use the browser to its fullest potential.
It has everything a web browser needs to be a fully functional web browser in its core. That includes a fully-fledged, secure and functional password manager, etc. Machine translation of websites is inevitably going to be some on-line service (which you can also access through web interfaces). Do not confuse convenience with functionality.

Now, I find all this trying to twist technical reasoning into some sociopolitical faux pas not only tiring but also displaying very poor character on your end, so I do hope that:
I suspend my activity in this forum.
...will be followed to the letter. And before you come back in a huff about my opinion of you: you started the calling out, so you can expect a retort.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
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Tharthan
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Re: Writing posts

Unread post by Tharthan » 2021-06-04, 02:23

palem wrote:
2021-06-03, 08:01
censorship prevails here.
You're free to believe that, I suppose. But if you are going to make that claim, can you at least provide a few actual examples of that?

I bet that you can't.
Because this place is not a bastion of censorship.
Off-topic:
With regard to unfriendliness, I think that anything of that sort that might be going on right now is ultimately an unfortunate result of everyone being pushed to their limits. When people are utterly drained because of constant absurdity and unending frustration, they can end up being touchy.

Now, does that justify unfriendliness? No, but it certainly does make it understandable.

You ought to just let it be to you like water off of a duck's back. That would do you well in life.
"This is a war against individuality and intelligence. Only thing we can do is stand strong."adesh, 9 January 2020

"I used to think I was a grumpy old man, but I don't hold a candle compared to Tharthan."Cassette, 9 September 2020

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shevy
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Re: Writing posts

Unread post by shevy » 2021-06-06, 10:00

Off-topic:
Nuck-TH wrote:

> You can thank google for this and their enormous manpower that makes chasing their arbitrary changes and extensions
> to standarts nigh impossible. Especially when pretty much no one(with rare exceptions) helps.

IMO this is one of the biggest threats altogether. Not just in regards to Google alone, but big centralized private entities,
and access/control to the flow of information.

I've seen how this affects elderly people a lot. I am not saying that they should adhere to my opinion - it's fine if they
have an alternative opinion. But they are swarmed by one-sided pro-government opinions primarily; and sometimes
one-sided anti-government opinion. Then the information content is deliberately polarized (us versus them; you had
that in the USA already in the last ~8 years) and they are left without being able to check or verify information on
their own. These often don't even use wikipedia at all. Not saying that wikipedia is always super-objective and
stuff, mind you - but they don't even visit it AT ALL whatsoever. They literally depend on information displayed
to them by TV. They have no real viable alternative to other information. Oddly enough they use the internet
but they don't really understand it. (I've seen how elderly people with slight dementia end up with tons of
notifications on the bottom right area of their laptops, and they do not remember how they activated it.
That's why I think of pop ups in general as potentially dangerous. See the firefox notification thingies you
can activate on websites. Perhaps there are legitimate use cases, but I have seen the ill effects on elderly
people in this regard.)

It would be great if we would have more real alternatives, but as it is right now, the Google behemoth is steamrolling
over tons of "opposition" (or rather alternatives, if you want to call it that way). Mozilla/Firefox already gave up
in 2010 or so. I don't really know what Firefox is today, but it definitely is different to the Firefox from, say, 2003
to 2008 or so.
Last edited by Moonchild on 2021-06-06, 10:17, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Take off-topic like this to the offtopic board. and learn to quote.

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