Free for all "off-topic" board?

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Should we have a "wild west" off-topic board on this forum?

Poll ended at 2019-06-02, 20:13

Yes, create an "off-topic" board that has special rules of engagement.
30
47%
No, keep the forum focused on what it was set up for: Pale Moon/Basilisk/UXP and related topics.
34
53%
 
Total votes: 64

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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by yereverluvinuncleber » 2019-05-31, 16:31

Rule 1 is: Never troll and NEVER EVER respond to trolls.

You cannot go wrong. Some here need to learn that rule and the result? It would make the place a much nicer place to be in general.

Rule no. 2? You MUST obey all the rules.
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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by rickmv » 2019-05-31, 17:06

You know when a project is not on the right track when devs. spend the majority of time bragging about their contributed work and IQ level, insult and fight users of their product on their own forum.

Firefox 60 ESR is not that bad after all. Just some great legacy XUL addons are deeply missed.

Fun fact: 137 = above 99% of the population...

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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by NotFunny » 2019-05-31, 17:55

rickmv wrote:
2019-05-31, 17:06
You know when a project is not on the right track when devs. spend the majority of time bragging about their contributed work and IQ level, insult and fight users of their product on their own forum.
Oddly encouraged by the Project Leader with the ridiculous polls which were obviously fixed by the infamous troll duo who are in action on this thread as well as elsewhere.
Kindly delete my account from this mad house, it's embarrassing.

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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2019-05-31, 18:12

As I stated, until relatively recently I didn't take much credit for the stuff I did attributing it collectively to the Project.

Though, I would like to know more about your feelings about the progress track of what we all work so hard to provide you free of charge.
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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by basicuser » 2019-05-31, 21:06

I'm just an NFG here but having watched how this poll has unfolded, I vote no. This thread has seen two bans just discussing the idea. So sad.

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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2019-05-31, 21:26

Three by my count. I mean obviously people need somewhere to blow off steam and not be bound to many restrictions. So I am still in favor of it.
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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by Moonchild » 2019-05-31, 21:36

basicuser wrote:
2019-05-31, 21:06
This thread has seen two bans just discussing the idea. So sad.
I totally agree that it's sad. Not like I didn't warn people what would happen; but these people being banned is entirely their own doing. No more forum for them, including an off-topic board.

Looking at how close the vote is, I'm not going to let a few votes sway at least giving it a proper trial, with Tobin as Sheriff as suggested and supported with several hear, hears.
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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by Tohuwabohuix » 2019-06-01, 01:10

Moonchild wrote:
2019-05-31, 21:36
....Looking at how close the vote is, I'm not going to let a few votes sway at least giving it a proper trial, with Tobin as Sheriff as suggested and supported with several hear, hears.
Yes, a trial is worth I think even though I've voted with 'No'.

Mr. Tobin as our Local Off-Topic-Sheriff :thumbup: would be a good choice if he agrees :clap:
He has every experience ;) in dealing with escalating disputes and through this task he would be forced to learn even more - than he already knows of course - about how he should respond in some more sovereign and relaxed ways to subtle provocations against him or others :idea:

And ... not to mention being sheriff suits him well as a famous election poster proves :angel: :lol:
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Last edited by Tohuwabohuix on 2019-06-01, 12:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by yereverluvinuncleber » 2019-06-01, 09:27

All forums for all products attract trolls, whether they know they are trolls themselves. The important thing here is to "not respond".

I am a member of forums where the developers use mattermost/IRC or other methods to communicate with each other and they leave the forum to the visitors/moderators and those want to comment. They largely leave the forum alone instead using it for information 'IN' rather than information 'OUT'. This frees them to do the development rather than waste time on responding to comments on a daily basis.

One thing I have seen here is the inordinate amount of time two of the main devs spend on the forum. I know it must detract from development time.

My suggestion would be to have main stickies that answer all questions - already done - and a few top contributors who handle all the incoming comments and refer the posters to the stickies. Working with a few select moderators who have forum guidelines to handle the inputs just as Moonchild et al would want them to. Coupled with a bug handling system where users can raise bugs and an online chat location (non-dev) for general usage such as Mattermost (where users can let off steam) then the community can sort itself and the devs are free to do what they need to do.

The main gist of this is to get the developers away from the forum, to free them to do what is most appropriate.

Monthly progress reports and occasional dips into the forum by the moderators disseminating pertinent information are all that are needed. The moderators should NOT be the devs as it causes conflict. Someone like handyman would have made a good moderator when given strict boundaries to operate within.

The Palemoon forum model - as it is -definitely does not work. There is a reason why conflict starts, there are big characters that want to express themselves, promote their views and respond to criticism.

It is this that latter characteristic that the devs need to divorce themselves from and as such the forum requires reform to enable this to occur.

Don't feed the trolls.
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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by Moonchild » 2019-06-01, 09:41

yereverluvinuncleber wrote:
2019-06-01, 09:27
It is this that latter characteristic that the devs need to divorce themselves from and as such the forum requires reform to enable this to occur.
The problem with your proposal and analysis is that this has organically grown and isn't an organization setup. Where do we stop to be involved with the community when it is a community project? No, I don't think a drastic reform is needed unless we want to start acting like a separate group who is no longer involved with what matters most: our users. It would be a slippery slope towards corporatism. We might as well hand the forum over to fans in that case, set up an impersonal ticketing system with form replies and be done with it... Not exactly what I envision for Pale Moon. Maybe if we do grow too large then it would be an option, but we're really not there and may never be.

I think we just need to respond to users as they provide feedback, and that is what we are doing now. People want to have the non-development and non-support area of the forum reformed, and that is what we'll do one way or another.
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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by yereverluvinuncleber » 2019-06-01, 10:01

Moonchild - as this product you have created grows (and the forum too) it will become proportionally impossible for you to be here as much as is required. You are on a hiding-to-nothing and you will increasingly fail as you spread yourself thinner and thinner trying to help and assist everyone, comment, respond &c as the community balloons. It is also largely a pointless exercise as the more you contribute the more others will expect you to do more and more. You will have to relinquish the task at some point, I suggest you just do it in a structured manned before you are forced to by the sheer magnitude of the task.

You simply need to let that organic growth grow just as you have done with the new developers. Let the forum grow, give it new heads to contribute and moderate. Send an email to handyman and invite him back to act as a moderator, invite a few others as moderators/ contributors (apprentice moderators as it were) and let them do the job. Tell them what the position is with regard to Palemoon and let them defend you and the product. They don't have to agree with you personally but if you let them in and ask them to be a moderator then they will have to follow the house-style and acknowledge what your approach is. They can disseminate that to others.

Personally I think it is wrong for devs to be the mods when the group grows, the mod needs to be hard and sometimes harsh but the developer needs to be separated from all this. The community needs to have confidence in the devs and not be at war with them. If you let others defend your position it frees you from that stress.

I do not underestimate the stress you must be under, creating a product, the infrastructure, responding to the community, paying for this, feeding your family and managing a team of 'big' personalities. You wouldn't be doing this unless it 'rocked your boat' in some way but it is not healthy to take it all on your own shoulders. Any good manager can see when it is time to let others in to assist and to step back to allow something to grow.

If you are too involved it can be difficult to step back. I suggest you do exactly that and have a tink. That's a tiny think.
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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by Moonchild » 2019-06-01, 10:20

yereverluvinuncleber wrote:
2019-06-01, 10:01
Moonchild - as this product you have created grows (and the forum too) it will become proportionally impossible for you to be here as much as is required. You are on a hiding-to-nothing and you will increasingly fail as you spread yourself thinner and thinner trying to help and assist everyone, comment, respond &c as the community balloons.
But I'm not. I've already posted a few times that I'm not going to be as active here because I need to budget my time, and I let others in the community be the first aide to people with support questions.
Personally I think it is wrong for devs to be the mods when the group grows, the mod needs to be hard and sometimes harsh but the developer needs to be separated from all this.
Are you volunteering to be a mod?
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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by yereverluvinuncleber » 2019-06-01, 10:50

I'd be a mod for a particular board. My time is stretched thin but I'd give it a go for a portion of the forum.
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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2019-06-01, 11:34

You do realize that I am not one of the "Two Main Devs" of the Pale Moon project, right? That hasn't been true since late 2016.

Pale Moon is Moonchild's project and while the Unified XUL Platform is an organic outgrowth of the Pale Moon Project and of course those involved in the Pale Moon project are involved in the development of UXP.. You seem to be ignoring the fact UXP in and of its self is not solely developed by Moonchild Productions that is the whole point of a Unified XUL Platform and not just another "Pale Moon codebase". As I am not attached to Moonchild Productions AND the re-establishment of the existence of Binary Outcast demonstrates.

Indeed, my broader role in UXP development doesn't actually involve a whole lot of development. Some but not as much as others, I am more of the "get started" or "build the foundation" and "keep the vision on track" type.

You can't apply an overarching corporate structure to multiple organizations. You can apply the idea of a cooperative alliance between organizations and individuals who all contribute to not only the common shared platform code but often help with specific projects not their own.

Each of our UXP Projects is only a small fraction of the entire platform codebase. MCP, BinOC, and individuals as well as non-aligned/downstream contributors all work on the Unified XUL Platform for the good of all of us but our specific projects are our own.

Moonchild started the thing so of course he leads and manages platform development which uses MCP's established resources to further primary development such as the forum and the github organization and is based on MCP's developed project structure because that is where it came from but Moonchild Productions isn't Mozilla and Moonchild isn't likely to go off acting as Mozilla in dictating everything without question or compromise as Mozilla tended to do. THAT is why this whole thing could happen.

If everything started with UXP and we were all coming together to do this thing today, things may be different. Aside from it likely wouldn't happen aspect. But with its organic nature and shared evolving history.. It has unfolded as it has.

The mere fact that we have a lot of the same goals and ideals but we are all not carbon copy drones of each other bound by some corporate structure is a great thing. We have our own stuff and we are a community. The benefit is in a community we help out one another because it makes a better, more grand world for all of us.
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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by yereverluvinuncleber » 2019-06-01, 12:07

Nothing corporate about what I suggested. Simply, you let others in and let them help. That's extending a community built on trust. I see it on other projects. It allows you to back off a bit and refocus your energies.
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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2019-06-01, 12:19

Except, a large number of topics require technical answers. I know when I backed off from responding a lot of ridiculous misconceptions started and people were just getting it wrong or making up answers.

We have to be involved because we are the only ones who know what is.. is. Despite post after post after post explaining it over and over and over again.
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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by Nightbird » 2019-06-01, 22:14

Guess what's the most powerful feature of this forum ?
The devs are here and are not sitting in their ivory towers.
We don't "learn" from "abstractions" but from "encountering" devs, real people, «in flesh and blood».
Developers away from the forum ? :problem:
I couldn't imagine before how "disturbing" such an idea is.
Diversity is key.

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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by Lexx Diamond » 2019-06-06, 23:36

It will be great. I will start a thread that will loosen things up quite a bit.

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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2019-06-06, 23:44

We have an Off-Topic Board.

MODERATOR: Please lock this.
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Re: Free for all "off-topic" board?

Post by Lunix » 2019-06-07, 00:30

Thank you Tobin!

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