Tobin's forum presence [poll]

[ketmar]

eh. in no way. if somebody just cannot stomach Tobin (and i can't understand why, tbh) -- there is "ignore" forum function. i myself never seen Tobin attacking someone of pure "ill will". he is passionate about Pale Moon, and talks about things he consider good for the project, with great passion, but that's all. i am ok with that. if someone else is not ok with it, just press that "add foe" link, and you will never ever see his messages anymore. problem solved.

[tooshorttoolong]

Unfortunately he often posts unhelpful and aggressive replies, which I’m sure can drive away from Pale Moon new users looking for information or help in this forum.

[ron_1]

https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12697

I want it on the record that I:

1) in no way asked for this poll;
2) in no way asked for Tobin to be permanently banned;
3) am not voting in this poll; it's not my place. As I've said to Moonchild it's his and the moderators forum, not mine.

One thing I want to comment on from that thread is being called mentally weak. No one who is mentally weak can go through 3 months of Marine Corps Recruit Training (i.e., boot camp) and then 1 month of Marine Corps combat training. I really shouldn't have to defend myself on this point, but I feel compelled.

The ironic thing is that during Tobin's first dust up here on the forums years ago, I mildly defended him, if not in writing on the forum then at least in my mind.

Al6bus wrote:
Some "crybabies" should suffer

If by chance you are referring to me, piss off (I can be "direct" too if I want to be). If not, I apologize.

And for the record, I think CraigPD should be unbanned.

[Moonchild]

For the record, this is NOT about you, helloimustbegoing, neither is this about CraigPD.

Once this is concluded I will make a clarifying post of the consequences of your decision. A "what happens now" kind of thing.

[yereverluvinuncleber]

I have to say the forum would be a much better place and Palemoon itself would be seen in a much better light if Tobin's outbursts were to stop. There are many that are put off by what comes over as severe toxicity on many of the threads here. A casual visitor seeing the vile outpourings would wonder what sort of place is this?

Each time it occurs it taints Palemoon with a really negative brush. I have been in a few other forums that have that level of spite and venom and I have soon left. For one thing it suppresses contribution from those that don't want to be "barked at". Many just don't bother as a result.

The trouble is, the combination of the venom and Tobin being technically and factually correct at the same time - is a strange one. You can't fault Tobin for his ability to discern the correct side of a technical argument and to fight his corner vehemently.

I like what he does and I like his contributions. I just find the way he does it to be frankly, bordering on inhuman. I don't think he realises we all have mothers, we are all hurt by spite and we are all emotional human beings. He is too. It is as if he can't discern that during a forum exchange of views.

I'd prefer Tobin's outbursts to go through a 'filter' before they are published. Let him nominate someone, anyone to ameliorate his baser language before it is published. If it can't be made to happen then long term I think it would be better if he was banned. However, what he does technically for PM is to be applauded and I would be really, really sad to see him go. I am leaning toward ban but I'd rather he sort himself out.

[yereverluvinuncleber]

Sorry for this second post.

Why don't we just get Tobin to agree to his own code of conduct where he promises to tolerate others and just be nice to as many as he can each day. He could put that in his own signature as a reminder to self and also add an advance apology to those he is likely to insult in the near future.

It could act as a continuous reminder that we are all human, each technically competent to a certain degree and that some respect is due to others at all times.

Look, I'm English, I am polite, it comes naturally. Some need more help.

[back2themoon]

"Should Tobin be permanently banned from the forum?"

Definitively not.

Not sure if Tobin wants or accepts this "responsibility" (I'd love to know) but he is one of the PM project "ambassadors", no matter what his current title/status is. That's why he should always be more careful than "simple" forum members. Not out of political correctness, but because many people have inherent trouble distinguishing between someone's personal qualities/demerits and their work. They will transfer whatever it is they think about a person, to their work.

Does this make them idiots? Maybe, maybe not, but it doesn't matter. Only the project should matter.

I'm sure Moonchild is aware of this, but I'll share anyway. When any community starts talking more about itself and less about their goals and projects, you know things are going bad. So, I hope there's no more of this kind of discussion in the future. PM is smarter than this and no dumbing down should come near.

[Thehandyman1957]

I vote no and here is why.

When I first came here close to four years ago Tobin's way of communicating was
incredibly difficult to digest and made me cringe. It was also incredibly
offending not just to read, but to see how it made the project look and I myself had a couple of
run in's with my own bit of unhinged responses that actually got me a time out.

But that being said, in the four years I have been here I have seen some incredible improvements
in his communication skills and have learned how to encourage him to be better without
belittling him at the same time. Has there been a few times where I still cringe, yes. But
I am incredibly thankful for what Tobin puts on the table and the amount of work and passion
he has towards this project and others he does. To simply permanently ban him would be a deep
wound of insult to him that he simply does not deserve. I will agree that it would be nice to see Tobin
continue to buffer his responses, especially to the newer folks who may not know better simply for
the benefit of the project and it's impression on others and the well being and peace of the forum and
it's members.

I have purposely slowed down my activity on the forum because like others, I can get thinned skinned
and respond in a harsh way and sadly have seen a lot of lost forum members because of this, some with
their feet and others because they could not keep things civil. I hope things will be able to calm down
and folks can learn to forgive and others learn to be a bit kinder and softer towards one another.

As for the folks who are having a hard time with Tobin, I can understand how difficult it can be to work
with someone you are fed up with. I myself have had this same issue with a fellow worker and at times
I wish he was not there. But in all honesty, he has incredible value to our team and there are times
I cannot imagine not having his wisdom and help. When he acts like a jerk, I have to deal with it. But
if I took a scale and numbered the times I wish he was gone and the times I am glad he was there, it
would be a no brainer for him to stay. If I can't handle his way of doing things, I simply don't deal with
him for awhile.

The most valuable lesson I have ever learned, is that I cannot change others, I can only
change myself. And when I change myself, others will reflect that change they see in me.

[Lunokhod]

No!!! I think Tobin is funny, but then I think Catfish Cooley is funny too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWGP95hxaiQ
(Don't follow that link unless you agree, the reference to rednecks reminded me of it, and it's not actually that offensive - that video anyway... )
Some people are just like that and people who know them understand this. But of course, you might want to keep things child / advertiser friendly so I suppose you have to be a bit careful what people say on here.

[Moonchild]

you might want to keep things child / advertiser friendly

That has never been a goal here. We do not target children or teens and do not cater to advertisers.
The approach for the former is that we are all adults and can work things out as adults (although this very thread here seems to suggest that a percentage of our community has trouble with exactly that). Strong language has always been fine, as long as it is not uncalled for or unnecessary.
As for advertising -- do you see any advertising happening here? We already learned years ago that you can't have free speech on a forum and have ads on it at the same time because advertisers will punish you for not censoring things if they happen to not be "in the best interest" of them.

[JSB2000]

In the end, Moonchild, this is YOUR playground. You have to decide whether Tobin's presence here is a net benefit or liability. Personally, based on how you've weighed in both in the past and recently, it's obvious (at least to me) that you've already made that decision.

I can only speak from personal experience, but there have been times that I had a question about or problem with Palemoon. And I've purposely avoided seeking answers or resolutions here. Solely because of Tobin? Nah. But I wouldn't be completely honest if I said he wasn't a factor. But he IS a contributing factor.

So, I find the answers myself or go elsewhere for support. And treat this venue as...entertainment. Tune in for the Tobin comedy show, as it were.

To me, it's obvious that you don't care about how many people use Palemoon. Therefore, it follows that you don't care how many people avoid participating here because of people like Tobin. Maybe Tobin is a sort of litmus test for you. As in, "If they have a thick enough skin to tolerate his obvious contempt and snark (and your allowance of it), then they must be serious about asking for help here!"

And you ARE aware of his contempt for people here. You see it here. You see it elsewhere (Pakleds? Seriously? Geez, look in a mirror sometime). Yet you let him slide. Again and again. And we both know why.

Anyway...on with the show.

Edit: Forgot to add...I vote(d) "no." Please, keep him around! I want to see how far up your code his hand goes/can go.

[Lucio Chiappetti]

there have been times that I had a question about or problem with Palemoon. [...] I find the answers myself or go elsewhere for support.
[...]
To me, it's obvious that you don't care about how many people use Palemoon.

There is a saying "build a system that even a fool can use and only a fool will want to use it". Obviously Palemoon is not a system that even a fool can use, and that's one of the reason I am keen with it (while usually I am not with "mass software").
And I think also: (1) that I can receive on this forum a prompt and competent support, which is often not the case of other support sites; (2) the traffic on this forum (and the variety of participants) is relatively high with respect to other forums I frequent, so the user base is not negligible and/or the "product" still needs active development (not surprising since the web evolves ... more than window manager users need for instance).

Sometimes on a forum there are persons which are competent though somewhat harsh (ever heard of Carl J. Lydick on comp.os.vms ?), but for me it is not a reason neither to abandon the forum nor to ban somebody from it.

[Moonchild]

In the end, Moonchild, this is YOUR playground. You have to decide whether Tobin's presence here is a net benefit or liability. Personally, based on how you've weighed in both in the past and recently, it's obvious (at least to me) that you've already made that decision.

Have you not understood a single thing of this thread and poll? If I was going to make a unilateral decision either way, I would make it already, not do this.

[dalek]

I don't post much here, but I do come here a lot to read and learn.

Pale Moon & Basilisk and the independent derivatives New Moon & Serpent (for my XP machines) are my all time favorite browsers. Thanks to all who have contributed!

It would be a big loss for most everyone here if Matt no longer shared his insight and knowledge on the forum, don't you know!

For those offended by Matt's 'bedside manor,' or for those who prefer sanitized visits to the forum, a tool exists to hide unwelcome posts.

The funny thing is, is that I see Matt's 'fluid' writing as originating in his passion for his work, and that relaxes me, because I grew up in a place and time where passionate outbursts were seen more often, and it's easier to spot good motivations from passionate outbursts than from behind the facade of a smiling individual who follows the nostrum 'if you don't have anything nice to say...' lol

So... that's a big NO vote

[Giraffe]

Most definitely not! Yes, I can understand the effect on new members, lurkers etc. - I was somewhat taken aback by Tobin's posts (in the days before they became 'moderated' (FSVO)) but then, when I started to understand how very knowledgeable and useful he is, I simply let that side of the posts flow past me and then found amusement in them.
Banning Tobin would be like banning Linus Torvalds from Linux forums!
I see that some have voted Yes but no posts from them - so far.

[Moonchild]

I see that some have voted Yes but no posts from them - so far.

Nobody is required or expected to post explaining their choice, at all. I appreciate it that you want to provide context (and I'm sure Tobin might take a few things away from them, too) but it's entirely up to you whether you publicly want to state and explain either way.

[basicuser]

No.
The other side of the coin is that Tobin puts up with a lot of (in my opinion) trash talk even while he provides fast, helpful responses to forum members. Be glad he's able to overlook the crap and is still willing to share his knowledge.

[Paleist]

No. Pale Moon doesn't have that many contributors so getting rid of one would be a bad move. Also who cares about political correctness? I'd choose Dr. House over some very friendly but also slightly incompetent physician any day.

[ChelonianEgghead]

We're trying to continue a massive code base and keep it up to date all by our selves since No-zilla sold out and abandoned it. This is an enormous undertaking, and we need all the help we can get. Besides, Linus Torvalds isn't really known for his patient and caring attitude, either, yet both Linux and Git continue to be excellent programs all the same. (Yes, I know, they temporarily kicked him out and told him to chill for a while and come back when he learned some civility, but do I even have to remind you of all the drama that caused?) People should be judged by their deeds, not just their words, and while I cannot say that I endorse Tobin's behavior, he has been an invaluable help to this project and community, and we are indebted to him for his years of service. Banning him, therefore, would be unjust, would create tons of drama about free speech or whatever, and would mean the loss of one of our greatest and oldest contributors. My final answer: NO.

[Sajadi]

Should Tobin be banned? A clear no from my side.