Improve Ease of Access to Support.....

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SiyCo

Improve Ease of Access to Support.....

Unread post by SiyCo » 2018-08-30, 05:08

Not a popular suggestion, I'm sure, among admin, anyway, I think that's safe to say.....
I've found there's a kind of 'them + us', that exists between admin + users, I see it time + again. 'Angry + demanding', this has to be the most common, users are enraged, abusive maniacs demanding immediate attention + resolution to their problems. Indeed, the main reason given for pulling the feedback form on the website, is 'an increased amount of abuse', I'd guess that'll be from the same demanding maniacs I mention above?!?
I've seen this reason cited when website forms are being withdrawn, many times, consequently the need to get involved in forums became the popular way forward..... or backwards... whichever..... Ease of access to 'stuff', undeniably decreased at this time + is the major casualty of the trend, forums were, still are, a source of confusion + yet another demand on the user's knowledge base, a step backwards, in other words, at least the way I view it. Forums are 'techy-type' places, languages I don't get are spoken, they're often territorial, almost gang-like, toe the line or else, complain + you're in real trouble!
This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, not when you consider abuse is the reason everything now exists in forums, not the easy to use online forms that used to be offered, still are sometimes, when contact is perhaps more desirable, press, potential advertisers, + such like, for example. These serial abusers won, you could say, they forced change upon us all + the preventive measures taken don't discriminate, they apply to us all. If forums are seen as a barrier to the abusive, I assure you they are to the rudimentary type pc users.
"...They don't read (instructions, replies, what they're asked to)....", is another line I've often seen describing users, but this is fair comment, anything longer than your average teenager's SMS is an insult, to some folk... not big library visitors I wouldn't have thought (lol*)... I read until my head was spinning, however, posting my appeal for help took me ages, how to reply to individual replies I received, is just one mystery of many I ran into, I wanted to send thanks to the few replies I got but had to go with a generic effort..... is that bad form? I've no idea, I know how touchy forum folk can be.........
I scoured through previous posts for any talk of the issue I have, I did my due diligence, + it got me older, but none the wiser, some of my bookmarks still won't display the website icon on the bookmark bar, so it didn't prove to be the productive use of my time that I'd hoped it would be, a complete waste of it, better describes it....
I hope the abusers find it all as prohibitive as I do....... yet another thing I don't get, why don't abusive posts just get trashed + forgotten about, on to the next one...... or couldn't you block them, somehow? Or arrange to meet in the car park + settle it once + for all?!? You could have your Pale Moon champion, send him out to defend your honour..... these 'online screamers' wouldn't show up, anyway..... if they did, Galahad would handle it....... I've come too far to hit the sarcasm button, it's intriguing but it might wipe what I've written?? I wasn't being sarcastic, anyway, attempting humour, is more like it..... you might have noticed? Or, maybe you didn't?.....?...
To conclude, I struggled to get my head around how you go about asking for help, + that's minimising it, having done so I didn't get the help I need. It was a waste of time, how would you describe it, if you were me? I wouldn't normally bother with what is only a minor annoyance, I realised a while ago, that of all the time I get to spend on my pc, unless I'm careful, too much of it is spent scratching around looking for information on how to fix things that don't work, or how to do things I don't know how to do. It's like I'm the caretaker, computers can do a lot, but you need to know a lot in order for them to do them, I used to think I just want to be a casual user, not get 'involved', but you have to, to an extent + I don't see that changing any time soon. No one's trying to make things easier, things have got harder, help/support, as I hope I've explained to some degree, is harder to come by, apps, + such like, more commonly come with no instruction, some innate instinct is expected, it seems?....... I missed out on that, sadly.....
My suggestion, therefore, is to improve ease of access to support.
I could have just written that, I suppose....... it would have been a hell of a lot easier, I know, but that's not the way things are done, now, is it?
* Library Off-Limits!
** What do you mean, 'You need to login to post.....'????? I did login, my username, top right, the drop down includes 'logout'... another one for the mysteries list.......**

Thehandyman1957

Re: Improve Ease of Access to Support.....

Unread post by Thehandyman1957 » 2018-08-31, 01:40

I think in your desire to express yourself clearly, you completely lost me. :shock:
Reading your post was like swerving my car to miss a road full of pot holes in the hopes
of getting to the other end safely and with some sort of understanding on why I dared to
drive that road in the first place. :wtf:

It sounds to me, if I understand this clearly is that you tried to get some help on "this forum?"
and it did not apparently help you. That the forum is complicated or difficult to use?
That you wish it was like it was in the "good ol days"? That you have detected a slight
attitude of "us or you" attitude on this or other forums? That the language that is used
to describe solutions is more confusing than helpful and that the general impression you
get from forums in general is frustrating and hard to deal with?

Hopefully I have summed this up properly. :think:

I read your first post and do understand that you are missing some of your icons on your
bookmarks list. I have experienced this before both with F.F. and also PM. I can understand why
this may seem frustrating to you. In my experience I have noticed that if I go to the site on my
bookmark that is missing it's icon it will 70% of the time reappear. Sometimes not though.
As was stated in the comments of your post, some web pages don't supply the icon.
This is what my list looks like right now.
Screenshot - 8_30_2018 , 6_18_05 PM.png
As you can see, some of the icons are generic icons and those are pages I haven't visited in a
long time or are simply not supplied by the web page.

I can understand why the forum seems to be more difficult than getting to ask on a dedicated
support page but the sad and unfortunate issue is, that support takes man hours. LOTS of man
hours, and forums allow other users who may have experience to share and help those in need
while giving the developers more time to actually fix issues and make improvements.
Since this project is provided for free and time is a very hard thing to stretch, the forum provides
both a way for others to help, and a way for the developers to see what items need the most attention
without being completely overwhelmed.

Unfortunately this also allows folks to get the "kingdom syndrome" as I call it. I have not only seen it,
I have dealt with it myself. Honestly, PM is one of the better forums I have had the pleasure to use and
I'm glad to be part of this project. But that being said, people are people and things can get heated and
out of control. That is what moderators are for and those here seem to do a pretty good job of making sure
things don't get out of hand.

But the same can go for those that come here just as you said. They too, have to use good judgement, have
patience and be willing to learn. And concerning learning, this too is important. If you don't understand
something someone here has tried to describe to you, then you must take the extra time to explain this to
them so that they might be able to help you in a better way. Not getting frustrated is the most important
step.

It seems that someone suggested a add on that would help give you your icons back, but it did
not come with any type of instructions. In this case, you could private message the person and
ask them if they know how to use this add on, or you could search Duck Duck Go and see if there
are some articles about that add on available. For now, you can still go to the F.F. add on site
and type in that add on and look to see what the authors say about it.

So hopefully this might help a bit. We can't always control what goes on around us, but at least here,
folks are really here to try to help you if they can, but if you get short or frustrated it's hard
for them to work with you.

So take a deep breath, remember that we are all human here, and that this is simply the best
place to get help with PM and that we are here to help you if we can.

Oh, and welcome to Pale Moon. ;) :thumbup:
Last edited by Thehandyman1957 on 2018-08-31, 01:41, edited 1 time in total.

SiyCo

Re: Improve Ease of Access to Support.....

Unread post by SiyCo » 2018-09-02, 14:30

Thanks for the response, I do sincerely appreciate the time you took + also must congratulate you that despite my failure to express myself clearly, you still managed to sum up what I'd said with impressive accuracy.
What you say about frustration + people being what we are is undeniable, my frustration comes from my ignorance, which makes me needy + unable to help myself, which puts me on edge immediately. I'd imagine that would be true of at least some of those who seek support with a bad attitude....... which only explains it, it doesn't justify it....
Having thought about what you say, it's a world of frustration, Support, I mean, it must be......... you only deal with folks who've got something not happening, or happening when you'd rather it didn't, who then have to register as if you're giving permission for organ donation, or applying for a license, just to get into a forum you then need to decipher in order to ask for help. It's a ballache on top of a pre-existing ballache, deep breaths won't do it in most cases, I doubt, but this is the way it is due to time constraints, you say, which I can accept but it's a shame, I remember back in the good ol days.........
It's a two-way street, I take it that you're saying, I like your 'kingdom' analogy, by the way, you know things from both within + outside of the kingdom walls, with me + all the other peasants. They're doing their best on the inside + they're people with their own frustrations, it's not a perfect world, is it?
Thanks again, you clearly speak sense on the matter, I'll try to act on that........ these bloody bookmarks are a bugger, though....... I'm gonna remove the ones that aren't displaying properly, from sites I know do have icons, they just refuse to hang out on my bookmark bar........ sod 'em then...... don't......
PS What's with this 'You have to sign in to post....' when I have signed in, that's for sure....... so you sign in, again + your text's gone....... If producing frustration was your game, you'd be on to something with this, you could say you've arrived, the eagle has landed!??!?!?

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RJules3
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Re: Improve Ease of Access to Support.....

Unread post by RJules3 » 2018-09-03, 17:39

SiyCo wrote:....... so you sign in, again + your text's gone.......
A forum post normally has not the length of a novel's chapter but if you are writing like in the posts above, my recommendation is to use a local editor, prepare your text there and then post in one step via copy and paste.

Here my 2 cents to the discussion: Don't forget that a lot of people on such a forum aren't native speakers. The best subject matter expert isn't necessarily the best English speaker. So take everything with the understanding that it might be, the writer just didn't find the matching vocable for the wanted expression and try to think along the writer's line.

Thehandyman1957

Re: Improve Ease of Access to Support.....

Unread post by Thehandyman1957 » 2018-09-04, 01:03

I'm glad to try to help. As for the sign in thing, I'm not sure. I have never ran into
that issue. Not sure if it may be a location thing I.E. country of origin or what. We have
a lot of folks from different countries and I have never heard this issue before.

As for losing text, I have indeed seen this many times on the forum. I have even wrote and
submitted replies and then seen that they are gone. Only to have to re-submit them again.

My solution to this weird bug is this.

Lazarus: Form Recovery 2.3.1-signed.1-signed
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefo ... d.1-signed

This add on has truly been a life saver for me and my computer, since without it I probably
would have thrown the thing out the window. Hopefully it can help you. ;)

SiyCo

Re: Improve Ease of Access to Support.....

Unread post by SiyCo » 2018-09-08, 17:24

Hello, again,
thanks for more of your time......... It's funny that you should have mentioned Lazarus, I'd been going on about the harsh injustice of losing what you'd just written + the consequent anger management challenges that come with events like that, you know how I can go on.......
Glad I did, 'Form History Control', are you aware of this? As far as I'm aware, it's similar to Lazarus, which I was told about after FHC had already begun embracing me with the peace of mind + blood pressure stabilization, it brings to the table, it's even accompanied by a detailed user guide. I'm looking forward to the next time my text is spirited away, without consent or warning, needless to say, it's yet to happen.......... but it will, + when it does there'll be no dangerous unravelling + broody thoughts of waging vengeful, retaliatory campaigns of pay back in kind, plus interest, high rates of it*, you know what I mean...... how most regular blokes respond to that type of provocation............. or how I do, anyway.......
Maybe I'll get lucky trying to submit this?!?! Let's see what happens.?......
* Current Market Rate will apply

SiyCo

Re: Improve Ease of Access to Support.....

Unread post by SiyCo » 2018-09-08, 20:48

I know what you mean about using a local editor, I've done that before where the 'writer experience' is poor (Fack, for example) + I could do that here, losing "a chapter of a book's" worth of text would hurt, but instead of preparing myself for what I'd call the abject failure of a forum, do the right people know it's failing so fundamentally + is anyone going to do anything about it????
Displaying what people write is a forum's bread + butter, surely? If a media player doesn't play, but deletes files, instead, do you tell users to copy files before attempting to play them, or, do you fix the player??? If you were to, that's a solution, problem solved, copying files isn't solving anything, it's accepting a problem + I hate that attitude, it reminds me of some really negative stuff.........
Your "2 cents", before I go......... anything I've not understood, here, has never been because of poor quality English, at any time, it just hasn't....... What has been, is computer-based conversation + getting my head round general functionality of this forum....... ignorance of the two fields explains it, I've come up against this barrier, before....... I wouldn't want it to become a habit

Thehandyman1957

Re: Improve Ease of Access to Support.....

Unread post by Thehandyman1957 » 2018-09-08, 23:15

'Form History Control', are you aware of this?
I had not seen it. I did take a quick peek just to see. It has a lot of
features I probably would never use. One thing I really love about
Lazarus: Form Recovery 2.3.1-signed.1-signed is the simplicity of it.

If I lose some text or something doesn't seem to have made it to my
new post, I can simply go back and re-post it by right clicking on the
empty form and picking what I had written.
Screenshot - 9_8_2018 , 4_13_27 PM.png
It also has form history also but I have never used it yet.

As for the issue with posting, it does not happen often and is impossible to
repeat and seems to simply be a glitch in the matrix. :mrgreen:

SiyCo

Re: Improve Ease of Access to Support.....

Unread post by SiyCo » 2018-09-09, 16:04

Simplicity, eh? You can't have too much of that......
Lazarus does look fairly straightforward, going on your picture...... that's the Tools menu, by the looks of it, I guess........ Looking at it, they're practically the same, FHC + Lazarus, that is......... if you want to road test either, this forum would be the place to do it, for me..... Every time I go to post something I have to re-re-sign in + my text will be wiped, which, of course, isn't the psychotic event inducing issue, it once was!
You need one of these add-ons if you intend hanging around here........ the attitude seems to be work around the issue, as opposed to work on the issue, but as people often say, nowadays, when they want to say something without saying anything at all short of stating the bleedin' obvious, it is what it is....
I expect you knew that, you're clearly no fool + things being what they are will be something you've grasped, I'd well imagine.......
'It isn't what it is!', this is far trickier, nothing fits the bill that I know of, here.......
Anyway, thanks for your input, much obliged........

Thehandyman1957

Re: Improve Ease of Access to Support.....

Unread post by Thehandyman1957 » 2018-09-09, 17:51

SiyCo wrote:Every time I go to post something I have to re-re-sign in + my text will be wiped,
I'm wondering if your cookies are getting wiped during your session? :think:

Are you using any cookie killer add on's? I use "Cookies Exterminator 2.9.4"
but I white list the sites like this forum so that I don't have to keep logging
in every time.

What your explaining sounds like your session cookie is getting wiped during your
session and when you go to reply, the forum doesn't have that cookie to read anymore. :problem:

Do you know what your cookie settings are set at?

SiyCo

Re: Improve Ease of Access to Support.....

Unread post by SiyCo » 2018-09-10, 15:12

I've got cookies set to accept 3rd party + keep until I close PM........ no cookie killer add-ons.....
That last post, all went as it should, I didn't have to sign in again + so on...... thought I'd mention that.....
As things stand, the session cookie is still there......

I was wondering if I could get your thoughts on a password manager for use with PM? Or handling passwords however you might handle them??....... Last Pass works to some extent, allowing you to see your password when you edit, is to an extent beyond that point, plus you have to use an old version from way back in March 2017, + things were different in those days, eh? We were all different back then, I'm sure.......

Thehandyman1957

Re: Improve Ease of Access to Support.....

Unread post by Thehandyman1957 » 2018-09-10, 18:35

The only thing I use is "Secure Login 1.2.5" and I'm not sure if you
could categorize it as a log in manager. It simply allows me to click
on it's icon when I need to log in and will let me choose a different
login if needed. once chosen, it logs me in automatically. But I notice
that it does not work on certain sites like banking.

Here is the main setting box.
Screenshot - 9_10_2018 , 11_31_54 AM.png
The only reason I use it is back in PM27 we ran into a security risk with
passwords being auto filled and they fixed that in PM 28. Now you have to
click on the login field to make it come up. But I still use this anyway. ;)

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Moonchild
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Re: Improve Ease of Access to Support.....

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-09-11, 04:50

I'm a little confused - what does this discussion have to do with improving ease of access to support?
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

SiyCo

Re: Improve Ease of Access to Support.....

Unread post by SiyCo » 2018-09-11, 07:50

That'll be me, going off-topic....... I just thought I'd drop a quick 'side enquiry' into my post + Thehandyman1957 was good enough to address that, not to mention previous input that related to the topic.......
'Absolutely nothing at all....', therefore, is the answer to your question ......
If there's anything else that's confusing you, please, don't hesitate to contact me........... confusion is something I know a fair amount about....... I expect people look to you for all the answers + that weight of expectation can be a huge burden to bear, I know only too well.
I had a leadership role in the Tufty (the squirrel) Road Safety Club, which at 10 years old showed me the pressure that exists at the top + how lonely it can be....... I know all about it........ it's tough at the top.........

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