Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

About this bulletin board and the Pale Moon website

Moderators: FranklinDM, Lootyhoof

Would you donate to make and keep *.palemoon.org completely ad-free?

Poll ended at 2017-05-12, 17:53

Yes, I would, and I am able to (and willing to do so in the future).
22
43%
Yes, I would, but I don't have the money to spare. I don't want ads, though.
6
12%
Yes, I would, don't have the money, so will disable my ad blocker instead.
15
29%
No, I would not, and prefer to keep ad-supporting. I will disable my ad blocker.
7
14%
No, I would not, and I don't want ads either. (Boo!)
1
2%
 
Total votes: 51

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35477
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2017-05-09, 10:17

I think the response is clear in the poll by now: People would be willing to donate, if they had the funds to spare -- but most people don't, or have better places to spend their money. Anything but an overwhelming majority of votes opting for the "can and will donate" means we will have to continue running ads.

As such, the best solution seems to be what I've been working on: Ask people to disable their ad blocker, or, at their choice, support us another way.
Yes, you can still block all of it, including the adblocker message, if you insist. I'm just asking that you don't. You will be able to dismiss the banner, and it will remain out of view for 14 days (cookie-controlled) when you do, after which it will pop up again to remind you you're still blocking ads on the website. This may be a minor annoyance for people who actually donated, but it's the best compromise I can make here -- there's no way for the website to know you've directly supported the project, after all ;)

If, by goodwill of users donating, enough will start to come in to cover expenses currently taken care of by the ads, I'll reconsider removal of ads completely. That's only fair to everyone!
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

User avatar
TechnoLurker
Hobby Astronomer
Hobby Astronomer
Posts: 26
Joined: 2017-03-01, 16:23

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by TechnoLurker » 2017-05-09, 15:17

Unblocked forum and main website from my adblocker to support Pale Moon.

Octopuss

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by Octopuss » 2017-05-10, 06:47

Moonchild wrote:I think the response is clear in the poll by now: People would be willing to donate, if they had the funds to spare -- but most people don't, or have better places to spend their money. Anything but an overwhelming majority of votes opting for the "can and will donate" means we will have to continue running ads.

As such, the best solution seems to be what I've been working on: Ask people to disable their ad blocker, or, at their choice, support us another way.
Yes, you can still block all of it, including the adblocker message, if you insist. I'm just asking that you don't. You will be able to dismiss the banner, and it will remain out of view for 14 days (cookie-controlled) when you do, after which it will pop up again to remind you you're still blocking ads on the website. This may be a minor annoyance for people who actually donated, but it's the best compromise I can make here -- there's no way for the website to know you've directly supported the project, after all ;)

If, by goodwill of users donating, enough will start to come in to cover expenses currently taken care of by the ads, I'll reconsider removal of ads completely. That's only fair to everyone!
Can you disclose the running costs of the whole thing?

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35477
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2017-05-10, 07:10

Octopuss wrote:Can you disclose the running costs of the whole thing?
No, and please quit asking.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

Fedor2

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by Fedor2 » 2017-05-10, 11:22

I can spare 10$ a year, and willing to donate. Now i know the only possible way is sending cash in envelope. But if you say postal workers steal it, i wont send now. Or i seek safe way to buy some bitcoin. Paypaly definitely is unacceptable for me.

As for ads, i would not object them like it was recently project wondefoll or somthing, i had allowed it in the adblocker.

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35477
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by Moonchild » 2017-05-10, 11:49

Let me put it this way.

If every active user of Pale Moon would donate as little as $0.25/year, there would not be an issue keeping the project and its development funded without needing ads.

If everyone would donate $2/year, we could actually have some larger advertising campaigns as well to make Pale Moon become more well-known, be able to offer more bounties, and hire developers for particularly big coding tasks that are a hurdle.

If everyone would donate $10/year, we could make Pale Moon a browser market force to be reckoned with.

Unfortunately the reality is that 99%+ of active users are used to getting things for free, and won't donate.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

Lucio Chiappetti
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 654
Joined: 2014-09-01, 15:11
Location: Milan Italy

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by Lucio Chiappetti » 2017-05-10, 12:25

Would you publish the IBAN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... unt_Number code of an account which could receive donations ? that would cater at least for most European users.
In the meanwhile in the ABL menu I ticked "disable on forum.palemoon.org" (so far I never unblocked anything, never bothered to customize beyond the initial installation, and did not know it was so simple)
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. (G.B. Shaw)

BenFenner
Astronaut
Astronaut
Posts: 588
Joined: 2015-06-01, 12:52
Location: US Southeast

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by BenFenner » 2017-05-10, 14:13

Donation sent.

Please remind us occasionally about the need for donations. I can and will donate, but I need to be reminded occasionally, and sadly it also needs to seem a little bit dire, or maybe explain the new goals within reach like you've just done (could market more, possible bug bounties, etc.).

User avatar
rabnbeinn
Lunatic
Lunatic
Posts: 350
Joined: 2011-11-18, 20:38
Location: Scotland

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by rabnbeinn » 2017-05-10, 15:01

I will be donating about £10 at the end of every month for as long I can afford to, I have also been allowing ads on all PM pages for many years now and will continue to do so (as long as they're not invasive).
Moonchild and the small team he has have gained my trust over the years so I 100% trust these guys to use our donations where and when it is needed. :thumbup:

User avatar
TwoTankAmin
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 777
Joined: 2014-07-23, 13:56
Location: New York

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by TwoTankAmin » 2017-05-10, 15:43

@Moonchild

I never suggested that you suspend site ads. No matter what level of donations you get, the ads should stay. I can block them so they don't annoy me and I think I donate enough to make that trade acceptable. But, if the ads were removed, what that would do is to deprive those users who cannot afford to donate, but who want to by allowing the ads, from being able to contribute in the one way they can.

Please, do not remove them.

I would be willing to donate some time to helping with a campaign to increase donations. I would have no issues with guilting* people who can afford to donate, but do not, into doing so. I even have a suggestion as to how I think one could reach out to the majority of users, especially those who are not registered on this forum, unobtrusively and in a way that should not annoy anybody. Plus, it need not come from you or the other people directly connected to the Pale Moon project. (Just bear in mind I am a technological dunce.)

I will admit that I have a vested interest in seeing Pale Moon continuing to be available as a viable alternative to the all the mostly unacceptable choices out there. I keep looking for something even close I can use as a back-up browser and it simply does not exist.

* Contemporary definitions for guilt. verb:to make someone feel guilty, esp. in hopes of getting them to do something.
Examples: He guilted her into calling her mother-in-law
from http://www.dictionary.com/browse/guilting
“No one has ever become poor by giving.” Anonymous
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”" Daniel Patrick Moynihan
"The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it." Neil DeGrasse Tyson

User avatar
Nigaikaze
Board Warrior
Board Warrior
Posts: 1322
Joined: 2014-02-02, 22:15
Location: Chicagoland

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by Nigaikaze » 2017-05-10, 16:35

Off-topic:
TwoTankAmin wrote:I would have no issues with guilting* people who can afford to donate, but do not, into doing so.
My personal opinion: people who attempt to induce guilt in order to influence others' behaviors are assholes.
Nichi nichi kore ko jitsu = Every day is a good day.

Octopuss

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by Octopuss » 2017-05-10, 20:33

Moonchild wrote:
Octopuss wrote:Can you disclose the running costs of the whole thing?
No, and please quit asking.
I didn't get an answer (like "no") the first time, so...

lyceus

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by lyceus » 2017-05-11, 04:48

The only thing that made me hide ads is that either they select a wacky offer from random country: "New Honda 1050MX Bike just 3400 Rupees, shop with confidence in New Delhi Amazon" or pinpoints my country but carter things that I cannot buy/I am not interested at all: "New Saba Kotex Tampon now with super-anti-opps-soft-ahh-center core with a shape of a butterfly!". :mrgreen:

EDIT: Disabled ABL here, BTW.

User avatar
TwoTankAmin
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 777
Joined: 2014-07-23, 13:56
Location: New York

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by TwoTankAmin » 2017-05-11, 05:56

Off-topic:

TwoTankAmin wrote:
I would have no issues with guilting* people who can afford to donate, but do not, into doing so.


My personal opinion: people who attempt to induce guilt in order to influence others' behaviors are assholes.
I am perfectly willing to be an asshole if it helps bring in more donations/income which increase the odds Pale Moon will continue to be available.

Anybody who uses Pale Moon and can afford to donate $10 a year who doesn't do so is a freeloader.
Anybody who uses Pale Moon and cannot afford to do so and then blocks ads here, is a freeloader.

If saying this makes me an asshole, so be it.

None of the people who use Pale Moon, except those who actually make it work, are entitled to have this browser available to use. It is made available to the rest of us because of the time, effort and good will of people who do not appear to benefit from what they do in an way except possibly from the donations users make and the revenue ads generate (collectively "revenue"). And before revenues might flow to the people who deserve them, there are expenses to be met. Somehow I think if revenue was zero every year, Pale Moon would not last very long? Maybe Moonchild and the rest of those who do the actual work are in reality all wealthy people who do not have to work and who also have the requisite skills required. They have banded together to be the Robin Hoods of the alternative browser world and bring us all Pale Moon with no need for or thought of money. The donation request and button as well as the asking to turn off ad blockers here is really a front so we will not catch on to all this. If you believe this, PM me because I can sell you a bridge in New york City very cheap.

If nothing else, I am an open minded asshole. So I offer an open invitation to anybody reading this thread to tell me why if you can easily afford $10 a year should feel you should not do this small thing to help insure all of us get to benefit from the continued availability of this browser. Please educate this asshole as to why taking advantage of this browser every year and never give anything in return is the right thing to do? And for those folks who cannot afford to donate and who use an ad blocker but will not whitelist Pale Moon web pages, please educate me as to why this is the right thing to do. I do not understand. The risk of malware coming from here is probably on a par with it being in the browser itself.

I have no ownership or interest in Pale Moon. I have no connection to any of the Pale Moon personnel. The only benefit I derive from users donating and whitelisting is the very same one as those who do these things get. We all get to have a better chance to be using Pale Moon next year and the year after etc. Oh yes, there is the fact that, while I may be an asshole, I am not a freeloader.

If you use Pale Moon, especially if it is your primary browser you should feel guilty and ashamed for not doing something so minimal that it will have no material impact on your life in any way and then think it is the right thing to do. Since I donate and I am an asshole, what does that make you?
“No one has ever become poor by giving.” Anonymous
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”" Daniel Patrick Moynihan
"The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it." Neil DeGrasse Tyson

half-moon

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by half-moon » 2017-05-11, 18:29

TwoTankAmin wrote:Anybody who uses Pale Moon and cannot afford to do so and then blocks ads here, is a freeloader.
I'm sorry, but that's just far from the truth. Blocking ads are necessary for security and privacy reasons. NO AD COMPANY PERIOD, has any right to snoop on my browsing habits and know about my daily routine. What ad companies are doing is morally wrong and unacceptable. As well, many ads have malware in them and that is also unacceptable period. If you are okay with ad companies snooping on what you do, then I'm guessing you would also be okay with a stranger peeking through your window and spying on what you and your family are doing at home right? I myself would find that creepy.

User avatar
TwoTankAmin
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 777
Joined: 2014-07-23, 13:56
Location: New York

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by TwoTankAmin » 2017-05-11, 20:45

half-moon wrote:
TwoTankAmin wrote:Anybody who uses Pale Moon and cannot afford to do so and then blocks ads here, is a freeloader.
I'm sorry, but that's just far from the truth. Blocking ads are necessary for security and privacy reasons. NO AD COMPANY PERIOD, has any right to snoop on my browsing habits and know about my daily routine. What ad companies are doing is morally wrong and unacceptable. As well, many ads have malware in them and that is also unacceptable period. If you are okay with ad companies snooping on what you do, then I'm guessing you would also be okay with a stranger peeking through your window and spying on what you and your family are doing at home right? I myself would find that creepy.
Sorry, I do no buy that. If you think Moonchild et al. who are responsible for the browser and this site cannot keep this site as safe as possible in terms of the ads that appear on it? If you do not trust them to be able to do this, how can you trust them to keep Pale Moon safe to use? But again, I am open minded. I would accept any evidence you can provide that any ad allowed to appear on this site contains malware or something else that will in any other way harm visitors who do not have/use ad blockers.

If one wished to be safe from tracking and malware overall, specifically allowing the ads on this site to be the only ones you ever permit is not going to have a material impact on either your overall privacy or security.

Now, I am not a real sophisticated person in terms of technology, and I can also agree with the general principle that many advertisers and trackers are invasive. But, that doesn't mean allowing any ads ever puts one at a great risk. What puts one at great risk relative to privacy is social media, an OS that tracks you and you cannot prevent it, what you permit to be put onto your device and to persist there. These are what puts one at risk, not permitting the ads on this specific site. Here is a list of the sorts of things one can do online with all the ad blockers and privacy software enabled they want unless the site involved stops it:

Join and/or use Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, SnapChat etc. Even visiting such sites as a non-member can be a risk.
Join Google, register with Microsoft, use Apple products, use the cloud, use pretty much almost any up to date version of a desktop OS.
Use IOT enabled products, have almost any any software set to Install Updates Automatically, have telemetry in your car.
Use a smart phone or even a basic cell phone which is normally turned on.

The more of these sort of things one does compared to allowing just the advertisements on Pale Moon sites, the sillier it becomes to argue the risks of the specific ads that run on Pale Moon sites are too risky to allow. Unless one can honestly say they do none of the sorts of things above, I will say, when it comes to using Pale Moon, if one gives nothing back at all, they are freeloading. If one does not do any of the myriad much more risky things described above, if they cannot afford to donate money or their time/skills and then and they also do not permit the ads to run on Pale Moon site pages, I would accept that as a plausible reason for not doing so. Somehow, I do not think such a person may even exist.

I will offer one last argument in support of my attitude. The current Ad provider on Pale Moon sites is Project Wonderful. This may or may not not last, but as long as it does, consider this https://creativetwilight.com/project-wonderful-review/
But don't trust that one link, Google them.... decide for yourself how likely it is their ads will contain malware or tracking software that will be activated simply by their being displayed.
“No one has ever become poor by giving.” Anonymous
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”" Daniel Patrick Moynihan
"The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it." Neil DeGrasse Tyson

Lunix

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by Lunix » 2017-05-11, 21:10

half-moon wrote:
TwoTankAmin wrote:Anybody who uses Pale Moon and cannot afford to do so and then blocks ads here, is a freeloader.
I'm sorry, but that's just far from the truth. Blocking ads are necessary for security and privacy reasons. NO AD COMPANY PERIOD, has any right to snoop on my browsing habits and know about my daily routine. What ad companies are doing is morally wrong and unacceptable. As well, many ads have malware in them and that is also unacceptable period. If you are okay with ad companies snooping on what you do, then I'm guessing you would also be okay with a stranger peeking through your window and spying on what you and your family are doing at home right? I myself would find that creepy.
Well said.

CharmCityCrab

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by CharmCityCrab » 2017-05-12, 02:47

TwoTankAmin wrote:
I am perfectly willing to be an asshole if it helps bring in more donations/income which increase the odds Pale Moon will continue to be available.

Anybody who uses Pale Moon and can afford to donate $10 a year who doesn't do so is a freeloader.
Anybody who uses Pale Moon and cannot afford to do so and then blocks ads here, is a freeloader.

If saying this makes me an asshole, so be it.

[...]
If nothing else, I am an open minded asshole. So I offer an open invitation to anybody reading this thread to tell me why if you can easily afford $10 a year should feel you should not do this small thing to help insure all of us get to benefit from the continued availability of this browser. Please educate this asshole as to why taking advantage of this browser every year and never give anything in return is the right thing to do? And for those folks who cannot afford to donate and who use an ad blocker but will not whitelist Pale Moon web pages, please educate me as to why this is the right thing to do. I do not understand. The risk of malware coming from here is probably on a par with it being in the browser itself.

I have no ownership or interest in Pale Moon. I have no connection to any of the Pale Moon personnel. The only benefit I derive from users donating and whitelisting is the very same one as those who do these things get. We all get to have a better chance to be using Pale Moon next year and the year after etc. Oh yes, there is the fact that, while I may be an asshole, I am not a freeloader.

If you use Pale Moon, especially if it is your primary browser you should feel guilty and ashamed for not doing something so minimal that it will have no material impact on your life in any way and then think it is the right thing to do. Since I donate and I am an asshole, what does that make you?
I wouldn't discourage anyone from making a donation, and I don't agree with the person who called you an asshole.

*However*, the truth is, MoonChild could start charging for new versions of Pale Moon if he wanted to force people to pay him for it. However, Pale Moon's usage would drop to like 100 people. Just look at how Netscape did when they kept charging for boxed copies of their browser when Internet Explorer started to get packaged in with Windows for no additional charge.

Right now, if Pale Moon went behind a "pay wall" type thing, users would have their choice of Edge, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Chromium, Firefox, Opera, Waterfox, Vivaldi, or Safari that offer browsers free of charge. That's just off the top of my head. Two are Windows only and one is Mac only, but that's still a nice array of choices. Pale Moon is better, but it's pretty much proven that a large enough user base to sustain a browser won't pay for a browser. There are too many free alternatives for them to want to do that and, frankly, it's nice that some things are free- not all of us are made of money. I paid for my computer, I pay for my Internet. Part of my computer payment included an operating system with software including a browser, and lots of other people or companies also voluntarily offer their browsers for free- it's all legal.

I think it's great that people want to donate to help the project. But I don't think there's anything wrong with not donating. Anyone making a browser can choose to charge for it. Pale Moon's owner chooses not to, just as basically all other browser owners do. Why? Because they'd rather have people using their browser than having a browser they are just designing for themselves and two dozen people.

It's like websites that publish articles and complain about ad-block. They could easily block viewers with ad-block from viewing their site. Most choose not to. The few that do, I stop visiting. Plenty of other similar sites that are fine with me viewing them and using some sort of ad-block. And, you know what, the sites that block me from visiting are missing out, because I send some of my favorite articles to people I know almost every day, and many of them don't use ad-block, so those sites that don't let me in with my ad-blocker are missing out on all the money they'd generate from the people I would otherwise email articles to from their sites and no longer do. Similarly, if Pale Moon got users off the users who don't directly generate PM revenue, they would lose the potential future revenue from everyone those enthusiastic users recommend Pale Moon to. Eventually if a userbase gets small enough, it folds in on itself- no websites would bother supporting PM if it had 75 users total, and it would almost be impossible to troubleshoot for web compatibility and bugs from the browser side of things because of lack of sufficient number of people reporting incompatibilities and bugs.

Asking for a donation is fine. It's nice of people to make donations. Cool stuff. Trying to guilt people into it by calling them names, not as cool.

CharmCityCrab

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by CharmCityCrab » 2017-05-12, 02:56

Also, worth pointing out is that the Linux version of Pale Moon is primarily tested on CentOS 7. CentOS 7 is basically Red Hat repackaged for free on a delay with a different name and a different logo (Which they can do because it's open source). The development team for Pale Moon could have bought a boxed copy of RedHat instead and chose not to. :)

I'm not saying that to bust anyone's chops. CentOS has the perfect right to do what they do, that's open-source software. In fact, Pale Moon is a fork of Firefox, they didn't pay Firefox for a license. That's how open-source software works.

And this is how browsers work these days- pay what and if you want.

Trying to make people feel guilty about it isn't going to do much good. At best, they'll say "Screw those guys, I'm switching to [different browser]" and usershare will drop, which is bad for Pale Moon.

To be clear, I am not criticizing the existence of the thread or whatever. Donation drives are fine. I just think when people start calling people who don't donate "freeloaders", that needs a response, so I've offered two. ;)

User avatar
TwoTankAmin
Keeps coming back
Keeps coming back
Posts: 777
Joined: 2014-07-23, 13:56
Location: New York

Re: Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

Unread post by TwoTankAmin » 2017-05-12, 13:01

OK- I must be wrong, not

Where is the donation button for IE (or Edge)? And why are you using P M instead?
Where is the donation button for Chrome? And why are you using P M instead?

I don't know if there is a donation button for Firefox/Mozilla, but does anybody think they struggle to make ends meet? If P M were a lot like Firefox is now, why are so many P M user FF refugees?

Browsers are mostly "free" because Microsoft, way back when, made them that way. Who would pay for a browser when a perfectly good one was free? Today free doesn't actually mean free for the big name browsers, there are many strings attached to your wallet via them.

And I am still waiting for an acceptable explanation for why the very least a user can do to contribute something, allowing ads on Pale Moon sites, is too much to ask? I have not seen an explanation for why people claim this is a big risk while at the same time they are taking way bigger risks every day.

I do not care what Moonchild does in terms of not charging for the browser. I am not Moonchild, I am not related to him, I do not know him personally, and I have no financial interest in Pale Moon. I am just a user. Here is what I do know about the majority of people who use this browser. We are all refugees from the other options. We have rejected them to the greatest extent we can. In relative terms, we are a pretty small group. Pale Moon is unique in a number of ways, some good and some less so. One of the biggest potential risks comes from the fact that it only continues because Moonchild makes it go. Forget about the bad things life can throw at us which might result in his not being able to continue despite having the desire. What remains is the risk that the costs and time involved not only for him, but the others who also give their time and skills, is that the balance tips too far towards a deficit. Basically, if even the operating costs cannot be paid by we the users, there is little reason to expect Pale Moon will persist.

Nobody asked any of us who use Pale Moon to pay a penny for doing so. Nobody has charged a penny for support either. This is a fact. So why do users think it is here and available to us? I think we have ruled out Moonchild the multi-millionaire programmer with a heart of gold scenario. How about something more realistic. He hoped enough people would use it and then enough of them would not only cover the costs but also createm a reasonable source of support. Think of P M like a giant extension where the developer asks for a contribution similar to the smaller amounts some FF extension developers would ask for. As far as I am concerned, Moonchild is entitled to make decent money for doing Pale Moon so we can use it. Even though the user base is not huge, we have chosen it over other options for good reasons, at least to us they are good. He deserves anything he can make for that as far as I am concerned.

Users are already paying for Pale Moon. Those users who donate cash and/or time and effort are paying it. (I do not know how much corporate sponsors might donate, but doubt it exceeds the user donations.) This is a simple fact. Take away the monetary donations and ad revenue what pays for any real portion of the costs. There is a page on this site relating to contributions. At the bottom is a long list of names. At the end of that list it says:
Note: this list only includes the names of people who have made a notable contribution (monetary or otherwise). All donations and support, no matter how small, are greatly appreciated, of course.
http://www.palemoon.org/donations.shtml

Think about that list as who "pays" for a most of Pale Moon. If one uses Pale Moon and contribute in no fashion whatsoever, you are freeloading off the people on that list. To a lesser extent you are also freeloading off of the people who contribute and do make the list and even those users who can only afford to allow ads here.

I have contributed to Pale Moon every year I have used it. So as far as I am concerned I am one of those supporting those who freeload. As far as I am concerned, all of them should feel guilty about doing nothing to share the load at all. You are taking freeloading off of me and a whole host of users. You will notice I have never mentioned how little or how much I donate. There is no reason for doing so. The amount is not the issue, this is not a pissing contest. Different users can afford to contribute in different ways and amounts. So what counts is not how one contributes but that one does contribute in some way.

I do not care how many names people want to call me. I am an asshole. You know why? Because I am willing to come here, state the simple facts and then take a lot of flack for it. It rolls off my back like water off a duck. As long as I continue to use Pale Moon I will continue to donate and to hope enough other users also do so. Because without the names on that list, without those who contribute but do not make the list and without those who allow ads here, I wonder if Pale Moon would be here for us all to use today, if it will be here next year or in five years.....

Freeloader is not a name like calling somebody an asshole or any much worse things. It is a descriptive term that has negative connotations because it describes a behavior that we do not consider very admirable. Either it is used correctly here or it it not. If one behaves like a freeloader in terms of Pale Moon, please don't blame me for how you behave.
“No one has ever become poor by giving.” Anonymous
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”" Daniel Patrick Moynihan
"The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it." Neil DeGrasse Tyson

Locked