Website and services sustainability. Would you donate?

[eskaton]

And I am still waiting for an acceptable explanation for why the very least a user can do to contribute something, allowing ads on Pale Moon sites, is too much to ask? I have not seen an explanation for why people claim this is a big risk while at the same time they are taking way bigger risks every day.

https://www.welivesecurity.com/2016/12/ ... cious-ads/
https://blog.malwarebytes.com/cybercrim ... ng-attack/
https://www.infosecurity-magazine.com/n ... reatens-2/
https://www.proofpoint.com/us/threat-in ... id-devices
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... lvertising

Some of those are variations of/on the same exploit kit, and one of them mentions working on a combination of IE+Flash, but there's ample evidence that bad things can be served through ads. Project Wonderful's ability to not be hacked, tricked, etc into serving any of these is the only defense if you allow the ads.

FWIW, I've made a donation.

[CharmCityCrab]

If one uses Pale Moon and contribute in no fashion whatsoever, you are freeloading off the people on that list. To a lesser extent you are also freeloading off of the people who contribute and do make the list and even those users who can only afford to allow ads here.

I don't know, I think a lot of people contribute indirectly through promoting the browser to people they know, offering feedback and bug reports to help make the browser better, helping create a sense of community here surrounding the browser, writing emails to websites they visit that won't support Pale Moon properly so that Pale Moon works properly on a greater percentage of the web, etc..

Again, I am not discouraging anyone from contributing financially. I think it's great that some are willing to do so, and I know it is probably necessary to keep the browser around and at the high level of quality we are accustomed to. I just don't think we need the guilt trips and words like "freeloader" floating around. If people make something available for free, then it's fine for people to accept it for free and do nothing further. Obviously, though, it's better for the project if it's better financially supported, so it's nice when people are generous, but financial generosity is not a prerequisite to using the browser.

Honestly, my initial reaction to some of your stuff here was "Screw that, I'm switching to Vivaldi" (Or whatever- If Pale Moon disappeared tomorrow, I'd be sad, because it's my favorite browser, and then I'd test a bunch of different browsers to see which one I like best for everyday use, because life goes on and I'd still want to browse the web), but of course I do like this browser better, and as you yourself said, you're not saying what you're saying as an official representative of the project. The official people are being a lot more diplomatic. It's fine to have pledge drive type threads- they have to pay the bills somehow.

I have contributed to Pale Moon every year I have used it. So as far as I am concerned I am one of those supporting those who freeload. As far as I am concerned, all of them should feel guilty about doing nothing to share the load at all. You are taking freeloading off of me and a whole host of users.

And you are obviously being very gracious about the whole thing. If I contribute a dollar or something, do I then get to feel superior to everyone who didn't and then run them down publicly? Here's the thing about a donation- it's a donation. That means unless it's specifically earmarked for something by prior arrangement like a Kickstarter where you get some sort of product as part of it or after discussion with developers that they'll use it for a specific purpose- it's just a donation. It's a free gift. It's nice to give. However, you kind of cede the moral high ground when you then use it as an excuse to run down people who haven't.

I would suggest just thinking of it as you making the choice you are most comfortable with, and feeling good that you've accumulated some good karma and helped some people out who like the browser, and leave it at that.

[TwoTankAmin]

Please actually read what I say, then pause a bit ans think about it.

Yes there are ads with malware, there are all sorts of bad things on the net. However, it is your behavior which allows those bad things to affect you. But your behavior should also have a rational basis to it. So compared to all the sites on the net and all the ads out there, what are the realistic risk that the specific ones on this site are actually a real risk? Do you think nobody from the management side of this site keeps an eye on them. If you believe this site and what is on it is unsafe, explain how you can think the same people who are not able to keep you safe just her can be keeping you safe anywhere else you go on the net? Don't tell me about the net in general and bad ads, prove to me anybody has been attacked here or any other Pale Moon page. Show me the malware here. That is the only relevant issue in terms of allowing ads when you visit here.

As for what constitutes a contribution, please do me a favor and donate $1 for every time in this thread I have used the the phrase contribute in any way, time/effort, at least unblock ads here? Helping people on the forum is contributing something- its called your time and effort. Maybe if I write it in really big colorful letters people will understand.

Pale Moon exists because of the people who make it possible. It is essentially supported by its users. There are many ways one can support it.
Donate money, donate your time in some productive way, turn off your ad blocker when here, build an extension, regularly promote the browser on other sites and on social media to drive new users here, offer to do language translations for Pale Moon. I am sure there are a lot more ways.

Pale Moon can only continue to exist because of the a continuing community effort. When one does absolutely nothing at all, not even allowing ads here, they are freeloading that is a fact. And if one doesn't like the term, too bad. Such folks are taking advantage of all those people who do contribute whatever/however they can.

If anyone thinks they can find another browser out there that will do that same things this one can, especially the things it won't do (like tracking you, like selling you stuff, like collecting information about you and selling it to others), please let me know because I really need a backup browser, Firefox ver. 28 doesn't really cut it.

"Vivaldi needs 5 million users to make a profit," they are not free there is no free in make a profit. "Vivaldi has also partnered with several content providers including Bing, Yahoo and Yandex and is in talks with Alphabet, von Tetzchner said." This sure sounds a lot like how things are done in terms of Pale Moon. Moonchild is partnered with who? How many users are needed to to make P M profitable. I am sure the average Pale Moon user would like Vavaldi as much or more than Pale Moon. (Did I just type that without falling off my chair laughing?) I would rather donate to Pale Moon than use Vivaldi for what they consider free.
https://venturebeat.com/2016/04/15/browser-startup-vivaldi-says-it-needs-5-million-users-to-turn-profit/

Pale Moon is not made available for free, if it were free there would be no ads to block, no donations button, no donation drives. If it were actually free, this thread would not exist. Moreover, I resent the implication that I feel superior because the way I am able to help is via a cash donation. I contribute because it is the right thing to do. I have no problem with how others contribute until that becomes absolutely nothing in any form. Then it becomes freeloading. I state that I contribute via cash donations as that is what gives me every right to say those who do zilch are freeloading off of me and all those who do help in some way.

I am going to leave this thread alone for a while. However, I will still leave one question to answer. What is a legitimate reason for using Pale Moon and doing absolutely nothing at all to help support it? Folks have given reasons why they don't like me or the words I am using. But so far nobody has answered that simple question which is the heart of the matter. Another way to ask it might be, Why is using Pale Moon, but not supporting it in any way at all not freeloading?

Let me end this post with a donation everyone can enjoy. It is a Youtube vid, it is music (so you need audio capability) and I play it every now and then because it always makes me smile. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVHOqrw3Jks&feature=youtu.be If that doesn't do it, try this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVHOqrw3Jks&feature=youtu.be

[adisib]

What is a legitimate reason for using Pale Moon and doing absolutely nothing at all to help support it?

Just using it alone is supporting it. Many websites don't want to support Pale Moon because it has a small user base. If people use it, whether they intend to help the project at all or not, it makes Pale Moon usage statistics go up, making it more of a target for websites to support. If something isn't working and someone asks for support, even if they aren't showing ads on the forum, it does show forum activity that can be search indexed to make the forum more visible, and help to decrease the number of bugs in the product. Should someone be more proactive in helping the project? Of course, but that doesn't mean they aren't welcome to use Pale Moon and should go away.

[Moonraker]

What are the costs for maintaining a browser.?
If figures were provided then it can put things into perspective.I notice people mention donating just £1 per user etc and if usage figures are to be taken into account then this would mean £500,000+ generated from every user.So are we to say that running servers and maintaining a browser would cost this amount.?
To give an accurate figure for what a user can/will donate can be ascertained by usage figures and actual costs.

No disrespect to moonchild what so ever here but i feel more transparency in terms of actual costs would be useful so as to give users a figure on which they can donate.

Its all good asking users to donate and i know it cant be cheap keeping a browser going but this project could easily turn into a cash cow for the developers.

Thats my thoughts and i express them with the utmost respect.
Best wishes.

[Moonchild]

No disrespect to moonchild what so ever here but i feel more transparency in terms of actual costs would be useful so as to give users a figure on which they can donate.

I'm sorry but the fact is that I'm not willing to disclose my personal finances to the world (for several practical reasons as well as privacy). The project's finances and my personal finances are tightly intertwined, if for nothing else that from a business point of view, this is all run as an individual (and as such I'm self-employed) -- there is no registered company or foundation that can provide public/private separation when quoting figures.

I notice people mention donating just £1 per user etc and if usage figures are to be taken into account then this would mean £500,000+ generated from every user.So are we to say that running servers and maintaining a browser would cost this amount.?

Go back and read what I stated about "if every active user were to donate $2" -- and what could be done with that amount (which is a lot more than what is possible now). Sustainability in its current state is marked much lower. Do your own math if you want an estimated total of the combined expenses (project+private) for a year.

Its all good asking users to donate and i know it cant be cheap keeping a browser going but this project could easily turn into a cash cow for the developers.

If you think this project is doing so well, then why do you think I am making a fuss to begin with about there not being enough coming in to cover expenses properly? You think I would just lie about such things? ...


The bottom line for this thread is and will remain: You can support Pale Moon or not, It is your choice.

If you want to support Pale Moon, you can do so at no direct cost to yourself by allowing ads on the websites and by using our DuckDuckGo search option.
If you feel that is a risk to you, despite me doing everything possible to minimize it, then you can donate and support Pale Moon directly that way. Consider it the price you pay for peace of mind, or something.
If you are able to contribute your expertise or services, then that is also a welcome form of support. Time is as valuable a commodity as money.

If you do not want to support Pale Moon but still use it, then I think the term "freeloader" does very much apply to you. Pale Moon isn't backed by a large company where providing a browser as additional software is paid for by other activities of that company (and as such development and sustainability is included in prices of other products).
Being called out on that by the people who do support Pale Moon is simply fair. If you don't like the way that makes you feel, then you have a choice to give something back for what you get out of Pale Moon.

[Moonraker]

Thank you moonchild for your response.
I was not in any form being disrestful to you in any way and sorry if it came across like that.I have much respect for you.
I have absolutely no problems supporting pale moon.
Way i saw it was,if i didnt ask somebody else would so i appreciate your response.

Of course your finances have absolutely nothing to do with me or anyone else and i would not dare ask such a thing.

best wishes.

[TwoTankAmin]

You folks amaze me. You make it impossible to stay silent with some of the stuff I am reading.

Apparently users believe that Moonchild should work for free. It's just the direct costs which are needed to support Pale Moon. BS

What do you think Moonchild might earn if, rather than building this browser himself, he did so for a big company. How much would his skills be worth to them? How much do you think he would earn? From the sorts of things I read in this thread it appears as if that amount some would suggest is $0. Maybe the reason there are so many willing to freeload relative to Pale Moon is because they all work for contributions and are grossly underpaid?

And the idea that Pale Moon would suddenly take off and make him a lot of money is simply delusional. Get optimistic and say that the user base doubles or triples. It is still just a blip in the browser market. Wow he might make 3 or 4 times as much as he does now. Move over Bill Gates..... As long as what he might earn from the Pale Moon project is coming primarily from user contributions, he will never become rich. I am amazed he is willing to keep doing what he does. If I had his skills I have no doubt I would have a six or seven figure annual income (in US dollars).

Get realistic here folks. Consider the Vivaldi browser mentioned above. The gent who created it put up, out of his own pocket, over $6,000,000 to get it built. And he owns it the same way Moonchild owns pale Moon. I will go out on a limb here and bet that since day 1 for pale Moon that 6 million dollars has not come in from all sources to cover all the Pale Moon costs and pay to Moonchild the sort of wage he deserves.

This is where people are really freeloading. Try thinking about this issue that way. When you do nothing at all to support Pale Moon, and don't claim using it supports it or I will tell your mommy to smack you upside your head, you are partially responsible for paying Moonchild a living wage. I wonder how many of the Pale Moon users out there would be willing to base their income on donations rather than a regular paycheck. So while he will never call users who do not contribute in any way freeloaders, I have no qualms about doing so. But now I am begin to wonder if another term would also be appropriate here- Hypocrite.

Obviously, users of Pale Moon should be paid to use it. We have no moral responsibility to offer something reasonable in return. How dare Moonchild ask us for any small thing in return. What I hear are a lot of whiney folks trying to show why they deserve to get what they want and claim it is their right to have and to use at no cost. In this context, that is freeloading plain and simple.

Microsoft, Google, Apple, Firefox Opera, Vivaldi etc. all have you believing they are free to use and all basically equal in terms of giving one the ability to browse. Compare how they function and that they are about as far from being free as I am from being a master programmer and then compare them to Pale Moon and how it functions. We are all choosing to use this very niche browser for a reason. We all know there is not a revenue generating stream of browser related crap coming down the pike at us. We know our information is not being used to make Moonchild rich. Every user seem to be aware of these sort of things. But then many folks have their brain turn off when if comes to understanding why doing their part to support the project is so important and so much the responsibility of each and everyone of us. What we are being asked to do is something so minimal in order to keep Pale Moon alive and well for us all to use.

At this point in the timeline Pale Moon only continues to exist because of we the users who are really responsible for its continued existence. Moonchild took the initial risk to build it. Had it failed he was the loser. But now that he has made it, it is we the users who are responsible for keeping it going. And this doesn't mean merely using it is enough. To make a dent in the browser market to the point where the big boys take note, think in the neighborhood of many, many millions more users. One way to get them might be via advertising. Perhaps we can convince the people with whom ads for Pale Moon would be placed to allow Moonchild to pay what he wants to contribute for the ads. Imagine him being able to hire programming help who would work for donations. Yes, making this browser much better and keeping it up to date is simple without using any money or getting help in any form from the user base. Tell us how he can do this. And even if there soon are three times as many users as today, exactly how does that make Moonchild rich unless he turns the browser into a cash cow by making it like the ones none of wants to use? All I see is 3 times as many freeloaders and maybe not the same percentage of those who help.

I will say I am sorry about one thing here and that is I cannot afford to donate more than I do. I would be willing to drag more of the freeloaders along with me not because I care about any of them them being able to use Pale Moon but because I care about me being able to do so. I care about those who do help in some way being able to continue as well. I want Moonchild to be able and to want to keep doing what he does. But that does not mean I have to like it. So, I will continue to see those who contribute nothing helpful at all as being freeloaders, because that is what they are. If you are not helping in any way and it bothers you to be called a freeloader, good, do something to change that. One is not a freeloader because of anything I may say or do, it is because of how they behave. All one has to do is change their behavior in a very small way.

I am still waiting for a good answer to that same question, and not BS stuff said to make those who give nothing back at all feel good about not helping. Using the browser does not count, telling friends about the browser does not help. Even posting about it on other sites does little to help. All the FF users now here since Australis are not here because somebody or some ad promoted a switch to Pale Moon. Most of us were not looking to find a different browser until Mozilla turned it in a direction we could not stomach. We were desperate to find a good alternative. I wonder what browser we all would be using today had there been no Pale Moon to choose?

*sigh*

[Moonraker]

Thats quite an epic novel of a post and robert browning would be proud of your pathos and passion.
Nobody is freeloading...
Are chrome users free loading from big brother google.......nope.

One rule of business is if you go it alone then you had better be prepared to fight it alone,there is no room for hard up wannabes in this cut and thrust world we live in.
Plenty of one man bands out there who survive successfully.However after pale moon has been in existence for nearly 8 years and suddenly now out of the blue donations are being asked for....?..sign of the times i suppose and its back to playing beggar my neighbour with no questions asked........pass the pepper im clean out of salt..

I for one am fully in support of pale moon and woe betide anyone who banters any differently,however and as i said before when you take on the big boys in the corporate playing field you had better be prepared for a few knock downs.I for one would not have the tenacity to create and keep a self propelled browser going and to put myself on the spotlight and try to maintain such a position is a brave mans toy.

Its not a case of trust in regard to financial matters,but when a developer starts asking for donations then this can signify a few things.
1.The product is becoming a struggle to upkeep ....
2.costs are rising.
I could go on but i will refrain.

I feel pale moon users have a definitive right to know how and where donations are being spent.
Best wishes to all.

[adisib]

Using the browser does not count, telling friends about the browser does not help. Even posting about it on other sites does little to help.

So no one should be telling their friends or helping to expose Pale Moon? That is worth nothing? Am I just wasting my time when I do that?

I don't think anyone disagrees that the project should make more money. Of course people should donate; I certainly wish I had some money I could throw at it right now rather than just having my adblocker disabled at the moment. But since when is Pale Moon a private party, rather than something that is trying to make the internet a better experience for everyone? The easiest way to not be a freeloader is to stop using Pale Moon. If you call someone a freeloader, they are going to say "Ok, I will go over to this other browser that is actually a welcoming and helpful community that wants me, so that I can enjoy using the internet." If you want to encourage people to donate to Pale Moon or disable their ad-blocker, please do. Tell them how the project is in need, and tell the of how much a donation can make a difference. Don't tell them that they aren't wanted, which is the connotation of free-loader. Because helping to expose Pale Moon does help, and the project needs help too much right now to turn down any help just because it is too small of an amount for one's ego. People are more likely to donate money to those who seem to need it, than those who seem to be trying to squeeze money out of them. The latter is more likely to make people leave. I don't mind you trying to encourage people to donate, but please do so in a more constructive way, because I want to see Pale Moon be popular and successful, rather than abandoned. Do you really think the situation with the number of users and developers is not as big as the issues with money?

[Moonchild]

I think we're focusing way too much on semantics for the term "freeloader" here.
I'm sure nobody meant that its connotation is that people aren't wanted, but the connotation is that it is a logical term for people who do support, to use for people who don't, and take steps, whether consciously or not, to block revenue for the project.

Most Pale Moon users, in the definition of "not contributing to Pale Moon's continued existence in any way", are freeloaders. That's fine -- you are all welcome to use the browser if it serves your needs! Pale Moon is published in the hope that it is useful to its users. That is the heart and core of our mission. By its nature, therefore, it is there to try and provide an alternative, with no direct commercial goal.

To balance that out, the project needs revenue - and contributions either directly (donations) or indirectly (advertising income). That reduces the percentage of freeloaders to people who don't donate and who block ads. That will still be a large percentage because that's just how people surf the internet these days: unscrupled blocking of all ads and scripts. Does that make those users unwanted? Absolutely not. Do they have to feel offended by the term freeloader? Absolutely not -- it's just a term to indicate that they take something at no cost, and, for whatever valid reasons (or no reason at all), choose to block any and all support for their free-to-use software.

If you do feel offended by the term, despite my definition above, then maybe it's a good indication that you should consider not being a freeloader and supporting the software that you're likely using all day, every day.

That choice to support the project, once again, is yours. You can at any time choose to support Pale Moon or not. I won't treat anyone any different based on their choice. This is larger than individuals, this is about aggregates; about our total user base using resources and our total user base providing enough to pay for those resources and development to respond to the ever-changing Internet. It doesn't matter whether those provisions are provided by a few large donations or if they are provided by an ad stream trickle from many users, or (as is the case now) a combination of both. It's about the total balance.

[Rickkins]

I could likely make the occasional small donation.

[TwoTankAmin]

This is all I have to say today-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HEW5bXqKbU

What we need is a low budget browser.............

[Lunix]

This is all I have to say today-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HEW5bXqKbU

What we need is a low budget browser.............

If you want a low budget bare bones browser, you should use Edge.

[rabnbeinn]

Been following this thread and....
This is how it is, or how I see it!

You donate
You turn off adblocker
You donate and turn off adblocker
You don't donate and turn off adblocker
You don't donate and keep adblocker on

The man (Moonchild) has asked for support for something that he has provided for free for years, he asks for a small donation or at the very least disable your adblocker for all PM sites/pages and use DDG so as he can generate some revenue to keeps things moving, you don't even have to click the ads. Obviously clicking on an ad will generate more pennies. Of the ads I've clicked no damage has been done so no worries and a little bit more pennies to the project

The fact of the matter is simple, to keep Pale Moon running more pennies are needed. Nothing comes cheap these days.

I don't ask where my money goes, I trust something I have been a part of for 7/8yrs. Not everyone is out to make as much as they can.

[CharmCityCrab]

But since when is Pale Moon a private party, rather than something that is trying to make the internet a better experience for everyone? The easiest way to not be a freeloader is to stop using Pale Moon. If you call someone a freeloader, they are going to say "Ok, I will go over to this other browser that is actually a welcoming and helpful community that wants me, so that I can enjoy using the internet."

Which is exactly what I did today as soon as MoonChild backed twotankadmin up today. I exported my bookmarks from Pale Moon, imported my bookmarks to Vivaldi, made Vivaldi my default Windows browser, and replaced Pale Moon with Vivaldi on my launcher bar.

I am not sure if it's a permanent switch or not, I left Pale Moon installed, but I actually did get rid of temporary bookmarks and cookies and later as I browsed wound up adding new bookmarks to Vivaldi tht I didn't copy over to Pale Moon.

I've used this browser for years (Look at my comment history- I'd guess four or five years now?). I've been supportive and reported bugs and helped newer users than myself. I've offered opinions and advice about the direction of the browser. I've recommended to my friends. I've written several websites email asking them to support the browser by proffering compatible web pages, including a long support ticket I went back and forth on with a bank about. I've defended Pale Moon and MoonChild specifically on Ghacks (Same screen name) and Slashdot (Anomously). On Slashdot, I basically have mentioned Pale Moon whenever I read someone complaining about the direction of Firefox. And of course my user-agent string helped Pale Moon's marketshare.

I also willingly put up with incompatibilies that actually forced me to have special dedicated one use browsers for sites PM didn't work on because I liked it so much.

However, Twotankadmin and his ilk seem to be operating on the assumption that users *need* Pale Moon. People like Pale Moon, they don't need it. Its not air, I won't die without it. Its not crack, I'm not addicted to it. Heck, I can even browse the web without it. And the other choices are not even all really horrible like the old days where if you didn't like Firefox, you were stuck with Internet Explorer- actually several are pretty decent.

I do have an attachment to Pale Moon and like what they do, otherwise I wouldn't have been using it for so many years. I wouldn't have been that active in the community and doing the things surrounding it that I mentioned earlier in this post. But I have enough choices that I don't have to use it if a troll is going to blast me constantly and then the browser owner is going to defend his terminology.

Now, to be clear, 95% of what MoonChild has said in this thread has been entirely reasonable. Twotankadmin lost his mind, though, and while I can appreciate that MC gives people a bit of room for free speech and to be a jerk if they want to, he should realize that actually *defending* the guy and his terminology there was not a very good PR move. Let him flame us, sure, I can live with that. But when MC actually defends it rather than just saying "Free speech, he has the right to say it", he's associating the browser itself with the comments.

Pale Moon's devs have a reputation for prickliness and not working well with others. Over the years, after initially being kind of taken aback, I learned to appreciate that they were around all the time and answered questions and engaged and thought "Well, you know, if the top guys at the major browsers communicated this much with the public, they'd probably say some rude things too, occasionally. The coolness of being able to really talk with and discuss things with the lead people on a regular basis was more than worth the occasional bluntness or whatever.

It still probably is. I am not necessarily giving up Pale Moon forever, or even for the rest of the weekend, necessarily. But I was really disappointed in the way this has gone.

I realize my non-monetary contributions I outlined above are clearly not as good as the guy who is flaming people like me who may have contributed $1 US once, but it probably pays for the server space I use to download a copy of the browser occasionally.

I bring in what in the US is considered a less than poverty level income. I'm not spending money on a web browser. One of the reasons I used Pale Moon was the ad-blocker, so I'm not going to stop using the ad-blocker either. I am typing this from Firefox for Android right now, which I switched to from Chrome entirely because Firefox let me install an ad-blocker and Chrome didn't. That was it. Maybe I've come to appreciate other things about FFA since I switched to it, but I had one reason at the time I switched.

Anyway, I get the MoonChild's gotta eat argument, but I'm not sure he actually makes less than me, and I've got to eat, too.

I'm under a ton of stress right now and maybe I'm overreacting, but the basic point seems valid. Don't offer people something for free and then call them names because they said "Thank you", tried to help in whatever small way they could, but didn't give you money or view your ads. If you want to charge, charge. That's fine. I can stick with Vivaldi forever if that's the case (Or pick from other available browsers, I'm not in love with Vivaldi, it was just my backup Netflix and other stuff that doesn't work with PM dedicated browser as of earlier, so it was easiest to switch to on a dime).

I'm also not sure I need browser angst to add to some serious real life stuff that is raising my blood pressure so much I am on 3 BP meds now. What browser I use and hanging out and talking about it should be fun, not more stress. People do not need extra stress. And this is not the way to grow your browser or win people over to base their applications on the new platform code you're working on.

I am trying to still be constructive here because I do actually still like these guys and this browser. I'm just not very happy right now.

[CharmCityCrab]

Also, just a little basic human psychology, the best way to guilt people into supporting something is actually to surround them with love and tell you are just glad they are using it and that you really appreciate that they do and that's all the affirmation you need. Then people feel positive, which can lead to then making sacrifices to fund you. Telling them they are freeloaders and stuff actually kind of makes people feel more comfortable not giving because they feel they are being denigrated and pressured.

I used to drop change or a buck or two into some like boxes or whatever to collective money for good causes- you'd see them at stores and in other public places. As soon as the practice started shifting to the casier asking me loudly if you'd like to donate to whatever, putting me in a situation where I felt like the stores were sort of trying to guilt me into it by making me say no to a human being who might think less of me, in front of a line of people who might overhear and think less of me, I stopped giving in those situations. When I feel pressured, guilted, or called out, the answer is always no. If that makes a jerk, so be it. I don't react well to people trying to make me offers I can't refuse.

[CharmCityCrab]

I wonder what browser we all would be using today had there been no Pale Moon to choose?

Vivaldi. That is what I used as my PC default today as the result of some of what's gone on in this thread.

Firefox for Windows right now has a UI I can't stomach, but I may try their new UI when they switch it in the fall. The mockups look okay.

There are things I don't like about Chrome and Edge, but if I had to, I could use them. I did use Chrome for a couple of years when Firefox got too annoying with its mission to be a bad copy of Chrome on delay and I didn't know Pale Moon was out there.

There are a ton of browsers I could try. And some of them do some things better. Vivaldi is quicker at loading pages than PM, for example.

I like PM better overall, but your posts are not having their desired effect. Keep in mind that a lot of people read and don't comment or don't even register for forums. Maybe if you keep going long enough, Pale Moon will lose enough of its userbase that you can be rid of all we "freeloaders" and have a totally incompatible web to deal with and zero publicity for your favorite browser. If no one uses it, and websites don't see those visitors, that hurts the browser. They'll be a lot of bugs and incompatibilitoes that go unnoticed with fewer people to notice them and report them, and that'll turn off people trying PM for the first time. You can have your smaller more morally self-righteous userbase if you want it, but I think you're shooting yourself in the foot, personally.

[New Tobin Paradigm]

CharmCityCrab if you could please stop ranting and double/triple/quadruple posting for a minute, what Moonchild said and it was clearly stated was he is not attaching the negative connotation to what TwoTankAmin said.. I completely understand what both are saying.. TwoTankAmin from his understandable perspective is as frustrated as many others are of the whole gimmy attitude many seem to display..

As stated earlier in this thread the Fake Opera browser mentioned wants to be profitable whereas Pale Moon wants to stay sustainable.. Those are two very different distinctions. This is what Moonchild has been saying all along.. What sustainable means is that he can continue doing Pale Moon as his full time job and we all can keep the servers running. That is minimal sustainability and is what is absolutely required. Due to things like Google in the past year and the overactive obsession with privacy/malware has both come to a head where ad revenue is dipping dangerously close to the minimal sustainability threshold. There are two solutions to that would best work in tandem.. Get people to not block ads on Pale Moon sites and/or get people to donate.

We are talking about sustainability here not profit.. To keep the lights on here at the Project and at his home and keep the technology going. Not to buy Moonchild a private jet and a mansion. If revenue were to go well above minimum sustainability then more interesting things can happen also mentioned above but it wouldn't be profit either it would be investment into the more interesting things.. Some dedicated programmers, bigger bug bounties, maybe even a formal establishment of some legal entity. Pale Moon is a small time community sustained operation and isn't out to make a buck off people like your Fake Opera Browser or any other browser that is more or less a delivery system for that companies other products.

However, if revenue dips below minimum sustainability that would mean Moonchild would have to look for Part time or even full time work elsewhere and that means that Pale Moon won't be the sole focus of his waking life.. And the Project would suffer. It might even reach a point where he doesn't have the time to do much of anything with it or keep the servers up on the line. That is why the community needs to step up and help..

With all due respect to TwoTankAmin, while I understand his frustrations and even agree with almost all of his points, Moonchild's response has to take precedence. But perhaps both needed to be said and perhaps everyone needs to become a little less sensitive and look at this from a more objective angle and a broader scope.

[Giraffe]

Seeing the bit about DuckDuckGo being useful to PM made me have a look at it. I use StartPage, set up as I want it and DDG is from the same stable (funny place for a duck).
Trouble is, there doesn't seem to be the Advanced view in DDG (ICBW), otherwise I'd use it.

On a different point, CharmCityCrab does have one good point: make people feel wanted/respected/loved even and they will feel almost a need to donate to PM.
I donated a couple of weeks ago but, had I seen the term "freeloader" anywhere /before/ that I probably wouldn't have done.
Having read through all of this and the other thread and so having more understanding of what's going ob, I might well make another donation at some time.