Anti-adblock message on PM main page.

[Daikun]

This has been occasionally popping up after a few seconds on the PM website.

Um... WTF?

[Moonchild]

I was looking into recovering some of the whittling-away of what little ad revenue there is left on the websites to have them be funded. Clearly, it needs to be in people's faces or they won't do anything, but this is probably a bit too much.

Too many people use ad blockers these days (I blame all the "malvertising!!!" noise some people have made). The result is ads becoming almost pointless, and income drying up. Our websites are no longer paying for themselves at this point.

[tuxman]

All the "malvertising!!!" noise some people have made is a hilarious wording for a real security threat. Do you remember the malware distributed via malicious ads over MSN and similar websites? Last time I checked, Pale Moon was advertised with "additional security features and security-aware development". Obviously, there are varying definitions of security awareness between the Pale Moon team and the rest of the world.

Concerning ad revenues: Sorry, but if you can't afford your hobby without putting your audience's computer security into a major risk, you should get a better hobby. No offense intended.
Having a website is not expensive enough to rectify that (unless you wrote it in LispWorks or whatever).

[Moonchild]

Venomous much, are we?

I'm not downplaying the issue of malvertising. But it *is* one of the reasons more and more people are blindly blocking everything, even on the majority of websites that do use conscientious advertising services.

Also, you are right, it doesn't cost much to host "a" website on "a" server. But it does cost. The fewer ads are displayed, the lower the revenue is per displayed ad, so it compounds. Also, you are misunderstanding our project if you call it a "hobby". In general, for each release, we have about 2TB of traffic per day for the first week in downloads. You think that is free? You think you can host that on a shared plan?

[tuxman]

I'm not downplaying the issue of malvertising. But it *is* one of the reasons more and more people are blindly blocking everything, even on the majority of websites that do use conscientious advertising services.

The only way to provide "conscientious advertising" (= advertising without a security risk) is to avoid using JavaScript for ads distribution and restricting yourself to simple image or even text ads. The problem is that nearly nobody does that - including Google.

Also, you are misunderstanding our project if you call it a "hobby".

A rather time-consuming and popular hobby, but still a hobby and not your daytime job (or do you really make enough money with Pale Moon?).
If you can't afford the web traffic anymore, I can recommend to distribute Pale Moon via decentralized filesharing instead.

You think that is free? You think you can host that on a shared plan?

I never said it would be free.

[Moonchild]

The only way to provide "conscientious advertising" (= advertising without a security risk) is to avoid using JavaScript for ads distribution and restricting yourself to simple image or even text ads. The problem is that nearly nobody does that - including Google.

Conscientious advertising means the advertising network keeps a close eye on the quality and behavior of ad content. Google does that. Other ad networks also do that.
JavaScript use in serving ads is not a risk. If you use a browser that poses a risk because of JavaScript, then you're not using the right browser. You can think whatever you want but that is what it boils down to. If you know of a way to use JavaScript to infect a Pale Moon user's PC, then I'd love to hear about it.

A rather time-consuming and popular hobby, but still a hobby and not your daytime job (or do you really make enough money with Pale Moon?).
If you can't afford the web traffic anymore, I can recommend to distribute Pale Moon via decentralized filesharing instead.

This hasn't been a hobby for years. I make enough, or rather I should say I MADE enough until Google decided to cut deep into the adsense because I refused to censor our users on the forum, and it's been whittling into nonexistence since.
Decentralized distribution of a web browser (I'm assuming you mean things like torrents or other non-web protocols) will not work. It is not practical, and simply isn't a good way to offer downloads for a web browser of all things. If you don't get that, then I'm sorry, but you're obviously not familiar with larger scale software distribution, then.

I never said it would be free.

You implied as much by saying I shouldn't insist on having a fair amount of ad revenue to pay for it.

[Moonchild]

For anyone else reading this thread:

• Pale Moon is non-profit. That means that what comes in, goes out.
• Search/advertising revenue is used to pay for many things: the add-ons site, automatic updates, blocklist updates, don't forget the sync server, a high-traffic service that is operated at no cost to you, the easy-setup server for sync, etc.
• The more users we have, the more expenses are made because things must scale to cater to it. This means the income has to grow along with it. If our user base grows and our ad revenue shrinks at the same time, as has been the trend in the past 6 months, then there comes a point where more goes out than comes in.
• Donations provide an extra buffer, but the basis of the projects finances has to be a balance between income and expenses or it can't be sustained. Apart from direct payment for browser use, ad revenue is the only way solid revenue can be made by distributing free software.
• We are not even talking about in-app advertising either; because I will never have that.

So, a simple "disable on palemoon.org" in your ad blocker is all I ask for.

[superA]

I did not notice anything since I keep my blocker off here, but I enabled it just to confirm this.
I see a dark red placeholder at the top of the page asking me kindly to disable my adblocker and that is ok with me.I understand all your reasons anyway and from my part, I support the project as much as I can, but the message that Daikun posted is an other story, fully unacceptable and you know, it won't solve anything and will not help at all, it's in the wrong direction.

In practice, it's a matter of a few hours time, when everybody will know and use a rule to disable this message or for some antiblock filters to get updated.
So, I think you are going to get the opposite from what you expect, new users won't be attracted either.

[Moonchild]

Not doing anything won't solve the problem either.

[adisib]

The anti-adblock message should probably mention that the ads are light and not intrusive.

[CharmCityCrab]

To properly context this issue, I think we'd need to have some idea of how much money is generated for the Pale Moon Project from search revenue (ie The per search "kickback" arrangment that almost browsers have when users use the default search engine [and possibly other engines]) and other revenue streams (ie recurring donations, etc) relative to all expenses occurred, and what percentage website related expenses are of the overall revenue pie.

Of course, it is entirely reasonable to say that this is proprietary information and we have no right to know. That would be completely true. However, if the project wants us to turn off our ad-blockers, make regular donations, or whatever- a lot of people will only do that if they can see the financials, which is of course their right as well.

Some might say that losing money on just the website end is alright if the overall project is at the breakeven point or operating in the black. Perhaps the website is the "loss leader" that gets people to the browser that generates the revenue to keep thing alive. We haven't been told.

[dark_moon]

don't forget the sync server, a high-traffic service that is operated at no cost to you, the easy-setup server for sync, etc

Maybe make a vote to see how much people use it and if not much, shutdown the service for saving money.
Since the Android version isnt maintained, i dont see any reason to keep the sync service

[Nigaikaze]

Since the Android version isnt maintained, i dont see any reason to keep the sync service

The sync service isn't just for the Android version. I use the sync service to sync between multiple installations of PM, none of which are the Android version.

And I, for one, would be happy to pay a monthly or annual fee for using the sync service, if Moonchild wanted to start charging for it.

[josephd]

So, a simple "disable on palemoon.org" in your ad blocker is all I ask for.

Completed.

Do ad(s) have to be clicked on or just displayed to generate revenue?

[ron_1]

An FYI: In case anyone is also blocking scripts (e.g., with NoScript), you have to allow scripts from projectwonderful.com to get the ads.

[Giraffe]

By 'eck! that takes some work!
Removed projectwonderful.com from HOSTS, allowed it uBlock, went to PM's home page, allowed all of that and couldn't see any ads, although the banner went away. Scrolled right to the bottom, tried the links and 3 of them opened OK.
I do wonder if, after a top label explaining the reason for the ads, if they'd be better placed at the top and to one side - I don't remember ever going right down the page before today.

[Moonchild]

To properly context this issue, I think we'd need to have some idea of how much money is generated for the Pale Moon Project [...] and what percentage website related expenses are of the overall revenue pie.

Search revenue and display ads combine with donations to pay for the entirety of the project, not just the website related expenses. The project, as indicated, has plenty of expenses (through services, and actually allowing me to work on this full-time) that do not have direct linked income to offset them, but are part of the project nonetheless. I've balanced this; it's directly related to the number of people using the browser. This is also exactly why reduction of income per user through blocking is upsetting this balance more than any fluctuations in users.

Of note: if you use an ad-blocker, you're likely also hurting search revenue for us. Similarly, it will damage our partnership with start.me because they will receive less from their just as non-invasive display ads on the start portal.

As for the exact figures: I don't really see a reason to make my entire financial situation public. That's personal. When I say that it's become unbalanced and more is going out than is coming in, though, you can rest assured it's not because of personal splurging I really tend not to do that, coming from a poor family.

[gracious1]

Search revenue and display ads combine with donations to pay for the entirety of the project, not just the website related expenses.

I feel like a real dummy here, but even though I have read some other posts about the problems Pale Moon has had with Google, I confess that I do not quite understand. So if someone could explain this to me as to a six-year-old child, I would appreciate it. How did searching with Google give revenue to Pale Moon? What changes did Google make which caused PM to lose money? (which in turn led to Moonchild putting up the request to turn off ad-blocker.) Is there another search engine whose use would help PM? Muchas gracias.

[half-moon]

Malvertising isn't the only reason why adblockers are popular. Another reason why ad blockers are popular is because of all the data mining and privacy invasion.

[kosamja]

What changes did Google make which caused PM to lose money?

From Moonchild answer in post 6 you can see its all his fault because he refused to do something:

Google decided to cut deep into the adsense because I refused to censor our users on the forum