Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

[LimboSlam]

Of note, please remember what MC said in this sticky: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9780#p66854. So I advice you strongly to be careful of what you all say and react to, ok. Thank you!

[Kunagi7]

Mozilla go home, you're drunk .
Trying to censor people who talk bad about them, sadly they made a lot of not so great decisions in the last years. But being an open source browser allows to create any fork and associated forum so ...

[dark_moon]

Thanks for the link, mseliger.
So mozilla ask us to police this forum, but instead fail on police own forum.
Read second post and look at the mod edit reason. I don't know if i should laugh or cry.

trollpost.png

[Moonchild]

FYI: Mozilla has asked PaleMoon developer to censor his forum • mozillaZine Forums

Ah, I see.

Well, for the record, for you people from MozillaZine reading this forum:

The "desk jockey trying to save his job" (your words, not ours) was nobody less than Al Billings. I don't think his job is in any danger. I'm not sure if you should bother him with questions to verify what has been discussed in private between us but you're free to do so. I just don't see it as good form to publicly post our e-mail conversation.
And FTR, I can really do without something like this so I wouldn't post it unless there was a reason. We don't need any posts to "cry for negative attention".

But of course anyone is free to continue to think I would pull this out of my hat.

Kindly let's avoid MozillaZine from here on, though. There's just no point in starting cross-forum flamewars by cross-posting content, which is what there is a pretty large risk of when it comes to them. That is why I've asked to avoid it as a topic as a whole on this forum -- my post is breaking with this only because it's directly relevant to the discussion here.

[Moonchild]

So mozilla ask us to police this forum, but instead fail on police own forum.

As stated though, Mozilla's response to that is that "they don't operate MozillaZine" and therefore have "no control" over that forum. Since we do run the forum in-house, we would have that option to start censoring people. But morally speaking, we can't. We won't.

[Joel Cairo]

Kindly let's avoid MozillaZine from here on, though. There's just no point in starting cross-forum flamewars by cross-posting content, which is what there is a pretty large risk of when it comes to them. That is why I've asked to avoid it as a topic as a whole on this forum -- my post is breaking with this only because it's directly relevant to the discussion here.

Yeah, it is kind of sad to see this. Even long before the Australis beta that prompted me to switch, when I was still a happy Firefox user, I knew that place was somewhere to steer clear of. You might say that every major 'brand' has a hardcore of supporters who are pathologically conformist. They can't be argued with; the only 'reason' that informs their decisions is to champion the majority opinion (for those who haven't done Psychology, studies on Conformity are absolutely mind-blowing! And deeply depressing).

They're not trolls on their own forum, but feeding them makes no more sense just the same.

[superA]

In mozzilaZine, people express their opinions, no matter if you or I, like them or not and if somebody cross the line, when the moderator thinks so, is banned, the obviοus in other words.

Imagine Pale Moon, helping somehow another product, another browser and in their forums everybody starting badmouthing PM.., unconfortable situation at least..
On the other hand, Mozzila did what they have to do, Pale Moon's moderators and developers must do what they have to do, if somebody cross the line in their opinions here,since this place belongs to them and people must express their opinions with freedom, fearlessy, no matter what Mozzila asked or the moderators here believe, no matter if they get banned after all, the obvious in other words..

[Moonchild]

In mozzilaZine, people express their opinions, no matter if you or I, like them or not and if somebody cross the line, when the moderator thinks so, is banned, the obviοus in other words.

Imagine Pale Moon, helping somehow another product, another browser and in their forums everybody starting badmouthing PM.., unconfortable situation at least..
On the other hand, Mozzila did what they have to do, Pale Moon's moderators and developers must do what they have to do, if somebody cross the line in their opinions here,since this place belongs to them and people must express their opinions with freedom, fearlessy, no matter what Mozzila asked or the moderators here believe, no matter if they get banned after all, the obvious in other words..

I've read over this post 3 times and I still don't know what you're trying to say XD

I think "the obvious" is stated in my original post?

[superA]

To tell you the truth, reading that again, even I, can't understand what I wrote..

I think "the obvious" is stated in my original post?

No, no, obvious= easily understood, f.. bing's translator, even worse than google's..

[vandys]

I just wanted to mix a little gratitude into the tone of this thread. Yes, Mozilla may or may not have been right to push on this forum "policing" idea. But I use MDN *all* the time, and every Mozilla person I've ever worked with has been amazingly clueful and helpful. I suggest we treat Mozilla less as an evil empire, and more as a valued friend who's maybe hit some hard times which makes them behave awkwardly sometimes.

[Moonchild]

a valued friend who's maybe hit some hard times which makes them behave awkwardly sometimes.

Absolutely agreed on the valued friend part. This is why I want to make clear where we stand in the post that started this thread, and where we draw the line. No ill will towards Mozilla from me, at all; we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them and their continued efforts with Firefox despite a very shaky future of the browser and rapid decline of their user base.

However, just like personal friendships, if you behave awkwardly enough too many times, then friendships do break.

[Mercury]

It's sad to see all this tribalism and mudslinging. Ironic how something so fundamentally optimistic like OSS tends to bring out such hostility and closed-mindedness. No one, on either side, needs insults to make their points.

None of this should be so personal. Even if you vehemently disagree with someone, it's still possible to maintain a sense of courtesy and fair play. And saying "They started it" is just a silly as it sounds.

I don't know how to fix this. I doubt anything I say will make a difference here. There are people on this forum - I won't name names - who really seem to be just looking for fights; likewise on the Mozilla side. It's the vulgar part of human nature that we haven't outgrown as a species, I suppose. I'm by no means immune; I've gotten into some nasty stuff against my own better judgement.

...I'm rambling.

[[Gort]]

...I'm rambling.

Nah, you're not. It's good to see a post that aims to heal than to cause further rift. As you say, Mozilla and Pale Moon are in the open source community and share code, so both have got an incentive to remain friendly. It's not right that Mozilla seem to be trying to manage another browser's board, nor are a few "trollish" posts directed towards Pale Moon on another board right, but it also should be remembered that there are many good and knowledgeable people on both sides of the fence. The loudest aren't the whole conversation.

[ketmar]

it's not a "tribalism". when we're talking about "bad mozilla", we usually mean "mozilla managers", not mozilla engineers. i.e. not the people who writing the code, but the people who making strategic decisions. those decisions are clearly wrong from our PoV. of course, mozilla managers can try to stop us from talking about such things, but that won't fix anything: it's their decisions doing bad to Ff, not our words.

mozilla had alot of valuable assets, including working js-powered cross-platform application developement toolkit (something others still trying to create yet), but mozilla managers choose to ditch it all. and now they are trying to "tone down" people in hope that if nobody will talk about their disaster, the disaster will magically disappear.

it's not "tribalism". it's sadness. most of us, "bad mouthes", were very passionate about Ff and mozilla as a whole, and it really hurts to see the curent situation. it's hard to keep silence when small group of people doing everything to kill something we loved. especially when those people were hired to make things better, not worse.

[Moonchild]

Please don't misinterpret my previous post. When I say friendships do break, it doesn't mean we're at that point - it just states a reality of any relationship, and a potential result of what people seem to be compelled to do.

I'm not sure if you can call OSS inherently optimistic. The problem seems to be that true cooperation is difficult for the human psyche, and true cooperation is what OSS asks for. A 'live and let live" attitude at the very least, but even that seems to be difficult as was shown here, but getting to that point at least is what I hope for, in lieu of actually working together. We don't have to agree. Users don't have to agree, either. But disagreeing and trying to control a different community through implied responsibility are two entirely different things. We're not a threat, and we don't intend to be. We want to give something useful to the world; and when it comes down to it, any drama, politics, stress and negativity surrounding it at least prevents us from doing the best we otherwise could.

Above all, this should be about honesty, and not about manipulation (either through implication or otherwise).
If something on this forum is honestly factual misinformation about Firefox, then please, speak up about it. We (staff and users alike) don't know everything, either, and some of our facts may be wrong, having distilled them from various sources.
If it's conjecture, and you need clarification, ask!
If it's your opinion, then present it as an opinion. People may disagree, so be prepared to deal with that too (in a mature manner, please) if you publicly post it.

Just common sense and common courtesy towards each other will go a long way.

As Ketmar said, nobody in charge here made Firefox get the dislike it's been receiving, and it's not our (or anyone's) task to hold back those voices.
On the flipside, I've personally been flexible in dealing with the much larger amount of badmouthing we've been at the receiving end of, including (ex-)Mozillians feeling compelled to perpetuate rude and incorrect statements. In the end though, end users don't really care; they just want a good browser that gives them a pleasant experience.

I've just drawn a clear line here: don't come into our house and tell us what we cannot do.

[Gary5]

FWIW I don't remember reading comments in this forum anywhere near as harshly critical of Mozilla as the comments I see on Mozilla's own blog every time they announce the next set of features they're planning to deprecate.

[josephd]

end users don't really care; they just want a good browser that gives them a pleasant experience.

I agree. Thanks to you and your team.

[bawldiggle]

As a 70 yr old dinosaur it is a shame the flame wars by a few (on both sides) appear to have escalated the current environment to even be an issue in both camps.

In 2008 I had cancer of the tongue and then in September last I had a stroke and was in an induced coma for 3 days.
- believe me, it certainly sobered me up to what is important and what is not
- the greatest lesson we have to learn in life is compassion

For those of us who do not live in a police state we have the luxury of choice
- we can choose to be reactionary or just let it go

Obsessing over browsers is not even part of the big picture
- and for the record I have been with Pale Moon since 2013 and am very grateful for the help I have had from Pale Moon AND Mozilazine in that time
- I chose Pale Moon because it suits my needs ... and Moonchild's personal ethos touched a very important chord in me

... to each his own -- time to chill out

[Moonchild]

Thank you for your input, bawldiggle. Indeed all this is unnecessary if you can take a step back, however:

Obsessing over browsers is not even part of the big picture

For many people it is. Especially the younger generation that, truth be told, spend a large portion of their life using browsers of one sort or another to be "always connected". Psychological dependence is a tough thing to just cast aside and not obsess over. So for them it very much is part of the big picture.

Like I said above though, all this rope-pulling shouldn't be needed. Ideally, all of us (Mozilla, us, and the people behind other similar browsers) should just do our best to create our browsers and put out the best we can. Unfortunately, when big money comes into play, and dependence on market share and only ever wanting to get more instead of reacting to the user base you have, things like public face, PR, and competition (and trying to control it) come into play that often take away from that ideal (even though it would not necessarily have to be so). And that can ultimately lead to this kind of request to try and control the flow of public information. That's taking it rather far, but I can still see where it comes from, even if I don't agree with that process. It's still logical from that premise - but I won't have any of it.

Let me restate one thing here I have always said: Pale Moon is released in the hope it is useful to its users, nothing more.
Despite the fact that it has become my life and life's work, and as such I will strongly defend it, I still let the users decide openly whether they want to continue using it. If something else works better for your normal use or workflow then please, go right ahead and use it. It is your choice, people. We have a community also because people choose Pale Moon, out of personal preference for it. And honestly, if everyone decides to abandon Pale Moon then that will be a blow to us but will be accepted as-is as well; you came here out of your own free will and it's not our place to try and convince you to stay when you no longer wish to.
So, to our users: Thank you for using Pale Moon and standing by us despite all the negativity flung our way and the resistance by the internet as a whole to recognize our existence or support us. We're happy the browser suits your needs!

I'd prefer not to have to focus on this kind of thing in this thread, at all. If people would just let us be and look in their own court before looking elsewhere, then this would not be needed. We (our team and supporters) are reactive because we feel it is our responsibility to be so, a responsibility to our users and the idea behind our project. We still have our limits in how much we will "let slide" before putting our foot down.

This will be the last I post in this thread, since I have some much more important things to work on. Thank you all for your feedback, and feel free to continue your talks

[Dave Moon]

If anything they should fixing the admin in Mozillazine.

+1