Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

[CharmCityCrab]

We could always look at the MozillaZine stuff as free advertising. Sure, they trash Pale Moon, but every time they do, a lot of people who have never heard of Pale Moon probably become aware of it and some portion of them probably try it even if only to "see how bad it is", and then some portion of them discover that they like it better than Firefox and switch their browser.

Anyway, though I think Firefox for Windows went down the wrong path many years ago now, and I actually used a different browser unrelated to any Mozilla code bases past or present between giving up on Firefox and finding Pale Moon, I use Firefox for Android everyday as my mobile browser. So, I am not some sort of partisian. I use Pale Moon for Windows because it is by far the browser that is closest (with my chosen theme and modifications and select add-ons) to my ideal for that platform available currently, same with Firefox for Android.

[Wuzzy]

Lol, is Mozilla for real? What were they thinking? It needs a lot of audacity to even come up with the idea to make such a request.
There is zero reason to comply with this request and I am glad you didn't comply.
I wonder who exactly had the audacity to make such a request.

If you forum admins would have complied, would that mean, in return the Firefox forums need to censor all talk about Pale Moon?

Live and let live …

[Moonchild]

If you forum admins would have complied, would that mean, in return the Firefox forums need to censor all talk about Pale Moon?

Ah but there's the crux. The main Firefox forum is MozillaZine, and Mozilla explicitly denies any responsibility for that forum because they have no direct administrative power over it (even though they could apply pressure if they wanted to, but that wouldn't exactly be in their own interest, now would it?).

[Dave Moon]

Interestingly the admin at MozillaZine has just asked me to remove the reference to Pale Moon from my signature. All it said was 'Pale Moon Rising' which I didn't realise was that inflammatory. It's the last time I'll use their forum anyway. In the past, I've had entire posts changed or modified, changing what I wrote. At first I thought it was some software glitch.




They probably won't like my moon avatar then either.

[Moonchild]

Yup, anything that happens to vaguely refer to Pale Moon (or "palemoon" as they insist) even if by coincidence will apparently set you up for being bullied and bashed. Seems to be a very sensitive pair of words.

[Dave Moon]

They seem very unhappy at MozillaZine. I only used to visit for the SeaMonkey forums, as there are some quite helpful people there. The admin there seem a tad paranoid though. Not a happy place.

[ketmar]

it is really sad to see people blindly going with the mozco crowd, tho. as Pale Moon project never wanted to "kill Firefox" or something, quite the contrary: Pale Moon devs helping Firefox by supporting the tech mozco doesn't want to support. so people have a choice. or... wait... mozco is scared exactly by that, 'cause they know that they're doing it wrong?!

[Thehandyman1957]

MORPHEUS
Mozillazine is a system, Neo, and
that system is our enemy. But
when you are inside and you look
around, what do you see;
businessmen, lawyers, teachers,
carpenters. The minds of the very
people we are trying to save. But
until we do, these people are
still a part of that system and
that makes them our enemy.

A Mozillazine cop writing a forum ticket stares at Neo from behind
his sunglasses.

MORPHEUS

You have to understand that most
of these people are not ready to
be unplugged and many of them are
so inured, so hopelessly dependent
on Mozillazine that they will fight
to protect it.

A beautiful Fox with a orange tail smiles at Neo as she
passes by.

MORPHEUS

Were you listening to me, Neo? Or
were you looking at the Fox with
the orange tail?

NEO

I was...

MORPHEUS

Look again.

Firefox 48

[Moonchild]

Truly though, I started this thread just to relay some important information and clarifying our stance in that respect.

People can speculate all they want about MozCo's and MozillaZine admin motives but in the end it really doesn't matter.

I hope people will keep an open mind, and that they understand what we, with the Pale Moon project, hope to achieve as well as that it doesn't have to cause any sort of strife. I greatly prefer the "live and let live" mentality over blind hostility involved in any sort of competition or fanboi-ism that seems to be going on. I wish the MozillaZine folks would chill out.
If Pale Moon is a threat to any other browser out there, then it's the result of the decisions those other browsers have made. Our user base has organically grown; nobody has been promised anything we couldn't back. If you're using Pale Moon, it is because you chose to; nothing else.

There is a line that's drawn though. One I've had to make clear a few times now: I won't stand for people in an official representative capacity of MozCo clearly attacking us while we have done nothing to warrant such a response. Nor will I stand for slander or public ridicule. And most definitely won't stand for corporations trying to limit free speech about an independent product and how it relates to their core business.

People don't seem to realize that I've devoted the last 7 years of my life to this browser, every day. People happily assume they know what they are talking about when talking about our code, but do they, really? Especially if people don't even care to verify anything but their own polarized opinions because, oh dear, they might actually have to admit they are wrong...
Everyone makes mistakes, even the "big guys". The difference seems to be that admitting those mistakes has an inverse reciprocal relation to the size of the company

Sorry about the small rant.

[snertev]

it is really sad to see people blindly going with the mozco crowd, tho. as Pale Moon project never wanted to "kill Firefox" or something, quite the contrary: Pale Moon devs helping Firefox by supporting the tech mozco doesn't want to support. so people have a choice. or... wait... mozco is scared exactly by that, 'cause they know that they're doing it wrong?!

They know they're doing it wrong, but they discovered it the hard way, by a free falling browser user share.

If they had respected Moz Foundation principle ("Innovate the open web"), maybe the browser user share would have been a tiny one, but the benefits for the open web would have been huge.

But MozCo, like any other corporation, seeks for money.

[Trippynet]

Interestingly the admin at MozillaZine has just asked me to remove the reference to Pale Moon from my signature. All it said was 'Pale Moon Rising' which I didn't realise was that inflammatory.

I'm not surprised. Back when I used to post there more regularly, I had one regular (not a mod) accuse me of spamming Pale Moon simply because it was listed in my UA string that MozillaZine pops automatically at the bottom of each post. There are some decent people there, but unfortunately there are a sizeable number of idiots as well. These days I maybe have a quick look once every couple of weeks (as Firefox development/discussion does still interest me), but it's yonks since I posted anything. Not worth the deluge of crap they often reply with.

[Dave Moon]

Interestingly the admin at MozillaZine has just asked me to remove the reference to Pale Moon from my signature. All it said was 'Pale Moon Rising' which I didn't realise was that inflammatory.

I'm not surprised. Back when I used to post there more regularly, I had one regular (not a mod) accuse me of spamming Pale Moon simply because it was listed in my UA string that MozillaZine pops automatically at the bottom of each post. There are some decent people there, but unfortunately there are a sizeable number of idiots as well. These days I maybe have a quick look once every couple of weeks (as Firefox development/discussion does still interest me), but it's yonks since I posted anything. Not worth the deluge of crap they often reply with.

There are some genuine people on there, but I think MozillaZine suffers from bad and overbearing/zealous admin. Unfortunately this can poison some bulletin boards and a kind of rot sets in promoting an unfriendly atmosphere.

[Moonchild]

Unfortunately this can poison some bulletin boards and a kind of rot sets in promoting an unfriendly atmosphere.

I guess we can take it as a good example of what to avoid here.

[Dave Moon]

Unfortunately this can poison some bulletin boards and a kind of rot sets in promoting an unfriendly atmosphere.

I guess we can take it as a good example of what to avoid here.

Definitely. I think we'd have to work very hard to get as bad as MozillaZine though.

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Definitely. I think we'd have to work very hard to get as bad as MozillaZine though.

Never let yourself fall into the trap of believing your own propaganda so completely that you lose all perspective. That is the way to not become elitist and close minded feeding off group think.

I am at my core an agitator.. I question everything. The status quo should never stay the status quo.. The end is never the end.

[Dave Moon]

Definitely. I think we'd have to work very hard to get as bad as MozillaZine though.

Never let yourself fall into the trap of believing your own propaganda so completely that you lose all perspective. That is the way to not become elitist and close minded feeding off group think.

I am at my core an agitator.. I question everything. The status quo should never stay the status quo.. The end is never the end.

Yeah, I think if you stop questioning anything and everything you end up in a sort of ontological feedback loop. I don't really know what happened to MozillaZine. It reminds me of certain pubs that you would go into and someone would start a fight over anything. It got to the point when I was apprehensive about having an opinion on anything there. After a protracted argument *cough* discussion with a moderator there several members pm'd me congratulating me on standing up for myself. If any forum needs to be 'policed' it is MozillaZine, particularly some of the mods there if you ask me.

[luckyo]

Just wanted to chime in as someone who generally only comes here when experiencing some kind of issue that I need help for with PM, and accidentally seeing this topic for the first time. I have in fact read through all three pages.

I think this project is well-run. It has its idiosyncrasies at times, but help has been generally forthcoming when needed, and when fix/design change wasn't coming, I was generally given a fair explanation as to why. Doesn't mean I liked the explanation when this occurred (this browser has in fact cost me actual money twice on ordering a bus ticket and then dropping the connection due to problems with encryption, which increased the cost of the ticket as it counted my previous session as ticket reservation and increased price of the next order for the same route), but at I'm big enough of a person to appreciate a straight answer as to why it happened.

Compared to the attitude at Mozilla "we know better and we won't even address your requests" I've ran with them back when I was still using their product a couple of years ago, I find this to be far superior even with the problems.


That's my two cents on the issue. So "thanks for running the project well enough for me to be satisfied" from me.

[Clasof56]

morning, i just read this entire forum discussion and enjoyed it all. i have been a happy palemoon user for some time now. no problems, i can take an easy breath and know i dont have to battle thru each new version which takes away some favorite little things. i had never been to mozillaZine before and so went there. i found that it is in "hibernation"?? does this mean its not active anymore?

[Dave Moon]

The plot thickens. Apparently, I'm the bad guy now.



As far as I can remember, I haven't bitched or moaned about Pale Moon on the MozillaZine forums, neither have I fanboy-like tried to convince anyone to abandon their browser for Pale Moon.

What's wrong with these guys?

I'd have never seen this if I hadn't been testing Pale Moon 27 beta and opened my GMX account with it. Which it works perfectly in BTW.

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Alright, let me reiterate something.. Bad behavior does not justify bad behavior. Whomever it or they are who are going to Mozillazine to stir up drama.. I am asking you to stop. Also, everyone, please don't bitch, moan, complain, comment, explain, focus on, or shine a light upon Mozillazine.. Their forum and community is not our focus and shouldn't be yours as well..

That person has a bit of a point if you can get past the disdain and after a fashion..

Simple fact is Mozillazine != Mozilla and this is OFF TOPIC to this thread. This thread, which is about a thing that happened some time ago now is not about Mozillazine..

Basically, we should leave Mozillazine alone and as has been the general result, except when pushed, they can leave us alone..

Is that understood? Wonderful.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.