Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

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Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by Moonchild » 2016-04-15, 06:12

I was contacted by Mozilla with the request to "police" our forum, since we (Pale Moon devs) are in direct control of the things discussed and posted here.

I'd like to clarify our position on this kind of thing to keep things from becoming unpleasant in both our relationship with you, the community, and our relationship with Mozilla:
  • We do not censor your posts, and this will not change in the future -- this is an open forum.
    Everyone has a right to their opinions and those opinions can be freely discussed here.
  • While technically possible to tightly control content here, we do not wish to do so as it does not create a healthy environment to discuss things in, which is the whole point of a forum. We will, however, control extreme behavior that is not constructive.
  • On the other hand, we'd like to see anything that can be construed as misinformation or purposefully misleading posts be kept out of this forum.
    If you're going to post anything about Mozilla that you don't know for a fact is accurate, then please don't purposefully try to present it as hard facts.
This is a community forum, but it is also a public forum. Please be mindful of your posts.

We'd prefer to keep a healthy relationship with Mozilla and the Mozilla Security team since we do rely on them greatly to be able to keep bringing you Pale Moon in an organized and safe manner. We won't, however, let Mozilla dictate how we as a community should operate.

Thanks in advance for your help!
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Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by x-15a2 » 2016-04-15, 11:01

I'm taken aback by this and it leaves me curious
  • Why does Mozilla think they have any control\influence here?
  • Did they give you any specific examples of posts that need to be "policed"?
  • Did Mozilla threaten\indicate any potential action against PM, MC or individuals who post here?

Andrew Gilbertson

Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by Andrew Gilbertson » 2016-04-15, 11:17

Thank you, first, for continuing to give the community a place to express opinions and concerns about the browser; secondly, for actually listening to the community when there are concerns or opinions that need to be addressed; and finally, for not allowing yourselves to be pressured by Mozilla into doing anything that would not be good for Pale Moon users.

I'm also interested in the answers to the questions that x-15a2 has posed, but I understand that you may want some time to find the correct way to express those answers without giving the wrong impression to those who don't take the time to read the answers carefully.

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Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by TwoTankAmin » 2016-04-15, 14:13

Many of us are here because we used to use FF and became unhappy with the directions in which Mozilla has moved it over the recent past. We are not the only people who feel this way, all one has to do is look at the loss of market share for FF during that period.

While I agree that there is a responsibility for people to post only accurate information on any topic, I cannot help but think that Mozilla is lashing out at this site since doing so against the other browser products which have really eaten their lunch would be fatal mistake. I doubt Mozilla is sending similar requests to Microsoft, Google or Apple. I think what galls Mozilla is that P M is FF the way many of the defectors to the other browsers might have wanted it to be.

When a company makes a major change in its product which it believes is the future of that product and the result is a great loss of their user base, they have only two things they can do. One is to admit to themselves they got it wrong and try to undo some things. The other route is to blame others for their missteps which is just a form of denial.

I would love to hear an explanation from Mozilla what they believe are the reasons for them having now lost about 65% of their market share since the peak usage. Why has their share slipped from about 17% with ver. 28 before Australis to 10.5% last month (a loss of 61%). I am quite sure that nothing ever posted on this site is responsible for these facts. (All usage data is from NetMarketShare).

I no longer have anything to say about FF since I have not used it in some time. Moreover, if this site decided not to permit users from discussing FF at all, I would not care. Nor would such a policy being put into force gain one user back for Mozilla.

The above is just one man's opinion, as always.
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Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by Moonchild » 2016-04-15, 14:39

x-15a2 wrote:I'm taken aback by this and it leaves me curious
  • Why does Mozilla think they have any control\influence here?
  • Did they give you any specific examples of posts that need to be "policed"?
  • Did Mozilla threaten\indicate any potential action against PM, MC or individuals who post here?
  • Why does Mozilla think they have any control\influence here?
    Indirect control: We operate this forum, so trying to pressure us (devs) into policing it to speak nothing but good of Mozilla can potentially be leveraged with influence over us, personally. Since we do rely on having a good relationship with Mozilla and especially the Mozilla Security team for smooth handling of security issues, that can indirectly influence our running of this forum. I have, however, no intention of being leveraged into that kind of a control structure.
  • Did they give you any specific examples of posts that need to be "policed"?
    Not thus far. I have asked them to please let us know if there is anything specific that is out of line.
    I've also extended the invitation to join us here to discuss things that would "make Mozilla developers defensive". Of course there are plenty of negative comments to be found about Firefox in our community; but I don't think any of them are out of line or making unwarranted statements -- the door is open, however, for any healthy discussion about those things or to ask us for individual evaluation of posts, of which I have yet to be given examples.
  • Did Mozilla threaten\indicate any potential action against PM, MC or individuals who post here?
    Only some vague, implied repercussions, nothing concrete at this time.
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Octopuss

Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by Octopuss » 2016-04-15, 15:42

I am not quite sure, but isn't all of Mozilla's code open source? Don't you just pull some stuff from GitHub or any similar source to implement it in PM? Why would you give a shit about what people from Mozilla say or even demand?

HandyMac

Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by HandyMac » 2016-04-15, 15:50

I was contacted by Mozilla with the request to "police" our forum, since we (Pale Moon devs) are in direct control of the things discussed and posted here.
The word police is an immediate giveaway. Read Vox Day's SJWs Always Lie for an understanding of what's happening here. (Free download: SJW Attack Survival Guide.) This is the camel's nose poking into the tent. I gather you're not about to give it an inch, which is the only effective policy. SJWs are expert at incrementalism – as you should know, given where you live. (I hear that no less an authority than the UN – World SJW Central – has now declared that Sweden will be a third world country by 2030. Now that's social justice!)
One is to admit to themselves they got it wrong and try to undo some things. The other route is to blame others for their missteps which is just a form of denial.
Unfortunately, the latter is how the SJW mind is constructed. A Buddhist teacher I know says that when someone criticizes you, you can take it as a gift: If, when you examine the criticism, you find it to be accurate, it becomes useful information to help you make necessary changes. Or, if you find it to be inaccurate, you now know that you needn't take seriously anything said by that person. Either way, you can use it constructively.

The SJW, however, can only respond to criticism by attempting to "police" the source, and eventually everybody and everything, so that nothing will ever be said, heard or thought that might trigger a negative feeling. This, of course, is ultimately impossible, which is why SJWs can get to be so nutty. But they sure can cause a lot of trouble along the way.

As a Mac user my primary browser is Safari; I've never used Firefox much except as an occasional alternate for problematic sites. I started using Pale Moon as a result of the Brendan Eich affair, and have found it very congenial and useful. Keep up the good work!

KNTRO

Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by KNTRO » 2016-04-15, 15:56

This sounds to me like Mozilla saying: don't talk BS about the BS Australis/FirefoxOS/Tofino/etcs we make. :think:

Will Mozilla ask the same "selfcontrol" thing at Twitter and other social networks?
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MozCop has just been created. Image

megaman

Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by megaman » 2016-04-15, 16:08

If anything they should fixing the admin in Mozillazine.

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Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by Moonchild » 2016-04-15, 19:12

megaman wrote:If anything they should fixing the admin in Mozillazine.
Ah but there's the crux. Mozilla says: "We can't do anything about MozillaZine because we don't operate that forum/site". So they just let them run wild and don't apply any sort of pressure (even if they could).
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dark_moon

Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by dark_moon » 2016-04-15, 20:02

I wonder if Mozilla ask that question(s) other firefox related browsers like waterfox and so on.

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Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by mseliger » 2016-04-15, 20:19

megaman wrote:If anything they should fixing the admin in Mozillazine.
Well, the admins of https://www.camp-firefox.de/forum/ are also strange, if you criticize Mozilla or if you complain about bugs in newer firefox versions. For them Mozilla is "evangelical".
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Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by NotFunny » 2016-04-15, 20:32

I was contacted by Mozilla with the request to "police" our forum

Really, and the name of the person at Mozilla is?

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Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by CharmCityCrab » 2016-04-15, 22:43

1. What Mozilla is doing here seems antithetical to the implicit underlying precepts of the open-source movement. Implicit is the key world there, because I realize that it is never directly stated, but the idea of software freedom and being able to do things your own way, from community contributions right up to and including forking free code to go your own way if you want to, and then sharing it again with the community so others can do the same if they want to, or the original software can use that code for their own software, is something that at it's core almost implies free speech. Code itself is speech. Forking it for a purpose is also speech. Sharing it with the community is also a value or a principle- legally mandated by some of the open-source licenses, but a principle sort of hidden within the licenses themselves.

So, to me, it's kind of odd that Mozilla, which is part of the open-source movement, is trying to stifle speech on a third-party forum dedicated to software that was forked off the tree from them.

2. People are going a bit off-topic in this thread. I respect their right to say what they want to say, within the bounds the moderators set, and I am not calling for it to be censored, but I have to say I'm a little puzzled at what some poster's opposition to gay rights and social justice has to do with this. I am pro-gay rights and pro-social justice- complete with a Bernie Sanders bumper sticker on the back of my car, and I love Pale Moon.

I get that some people are upset that Mozilla fired their anti-gay rights CEO under pressure from outside groups, and some people are upset about that, but that really has nothing to do with this issue. When it gets turned into a conservative or a progressive issue, you're going to lose people who'd otherwise agree with you. No reason to polarize people who are on your side when it comes to Pale Moon, just because they have different views about other matters. :)

3. While I respect that MoonChild probably desires to keep this lowkey, and understandably so given that he's said that Mozilla's cooperation is important in helping to make Pale Moon as secure for the end users like us as possible, it occurs to be that if worse came to worse and relations went completely south, he could publish their letter. GHacks for one would probably write an article about it. Slashdot could get it modded up on their site. I wonder if the fellow who emailed you really speaks for the entire Mozilla corporation and foundation- and, if he does, if they would deny that he does and renounce what he said under public pressure coming from media exposure. Mozilla could potentially loose important contributors and support if they are seen as stifling criticism on third-party websites.

4. Having said all that, I think I know what post may have triggered this. Given who it came from, I have no concerns that any reasonable criticism of Mozilla when it's on-topic or in an off-topic area is going to be squashed here. :)

5. Mozilla is fighting a losing battle trying to squash speech they are opposed to. A better course would be to make a better browser. Who cares what some people somewhere say on a message forum? When their software was good, they could do no wrong. As their core Windows browser product gets worse and worse, they are getting criticized everywhere- the Pale Moon forum is the least of their worries in that regard. I mean, they've lost like 75% of their usershare in just 2-3 years. It wasn't all because of Pale Moon- if it were, this browser would have at least 10 times the userbase it does now.

6. Perhaps if Mozilla like to mend bridges with the Pale Moon community, they could contribute some code patches and such. It's open-source. If Mozilla wanted to contribute directly to this project, I'm sure MoonChild and others would publicize their good deeds, and it wound engender a lot of good will. Even a prominent Mozilla employee doing it on his or her free time and not being retaliated against by Mozilla would be received very positively.

Right now, I think a lot of the community is upset because they feel like Firefox promised them choice, and then just went their own way and said forget all of you. If they were to, say, help maintain a forked browser like this in a prominent way for users who like to do things the *old* Mozilla way, it'd speak well of them. I mean, I could hardly criticize them if they said "You know, we wanted to go in another direction with our main trademarked browser, but in the spirit of the open-sourced movement and user choice, and given that we are in theory a charitable foundation, we want to help out people using other browsers and prefer things go a different way than our main browser is going". In fact, that'd be a wonderful thing for them to do- above and beyond the call of duty.

I think there is cooperation between Ubuntu, which is owned by a corporation (I think. Maybe Canonical is a foundation.), and a lot of owned and unowned forks, branded and unbranded, centered upon different UIs, in the Ubuntu Linux family, as well as downstream and upstream cooperation. This isn't necessarily a zero-sum game where one browser has to win and the other has to lose. They could all support each other and collectively offer users more choices, and better supported choices. Pale Moon and Firefox could both increase their user base without necessarily cannibalizing one another- plenty of Internet Explorer, Edge, Chrome, and Safari users to lure over from the dark side. ;)

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Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by NotFunny » 2016-04-15, 23:48

CharmCityCrab wrote:1. What Mozilla is doing here

Doinig what?
If someone at AT Mozilla did, it would be nice to have a NAME and copy of (presumably) the threatening Email posted here, otherwise it's just FUD.

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Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by Moonchild » 2016-04-16, 00:11

@CharmCityCrab: This has indeed very little to do with whatever political statement may inherently be made, or how people want to take that angle to this.

The question to police our forum was made solely because community members here regularly voice their negative opinions about Firefox and/or Mozilla.
That's all there is to it. And I really don't see anything specific going on here that would warrant our action to not have those opinions heard.

@NotFunny: You think I would make a post like this unless I've had ample reason to do so? :wtf:
What are you trying to do here with your pointed disbelief? Why should I disclose e-mail that is in principle private communication?
Why do you want their names, anyway?
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Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by Thehandyman1957 » 2016-04-16, 00:18

Personally I find this very interesting indeed. Actually I find it amazing that, Us, little ol Pale Moon Community seems to give them a bit of indigestion.

Perhaps we are more on the mark than we even realize as a browser. Perhaps we are even seen as a threat. Perhaps more is going on in the halls of Mozilla than we really know. Of course there is nothing new under the sun.

If someone is willing to give the people what they want and it can move folks from someone else that is more apt to not give people what they want then I can see why Mozilla might be sweating under the collar a bit.
Last edited by Thehandyman1957 on 2016-04-16, 23:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by LimboSlam » 2016-04-16, 03:52

It's kinda hard to have a healthy environment when we have spies/trolls (loud mouths to put it blunt) just starting shit that is unnecessary. Privately message me and I'll explain.
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Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by mseliger » 2016-04-16, 06:00

FYI: Mozilla has asked PaleMoon developer to censor his forum • mozillaZine Forums
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=3000305&sid=d5aaf36f411c6b52d04138e545a81199
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Re: Mozilla has asked us to "police" this forum.

Post by ketmar » 2016-04-16, 06:24

post was edited by the author to avoid flamewars
Last edited by ketmar on 2016-04-16, 07:20, edited 1 time in total.

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