Regarding the shutdown of Patreon usage

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mr tribute
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Re: Regarding the shutdown of Patreon usage

Post by mr tribute » 2020-06-19, 22:09

peorg wrote:
2020-06-19, 20:43
My question remains: What would be an acceptable approach for you to get the US government (or any other government) to come up with sustainable solutions for systemic and institutional racism?
If you grow up poor in the US, you will likely stay poor since who is going to pay for your education? It's not a racial issue.

There is no systematic and institutional racism. Why do you believe that? You need to be politically correct otherwise you'll get fired like Brendan Eich. As a white guy you have to be extremely careful so you don't step on someone's toes. Otherwise the "holier than you" people will instantly label you as a racist, misogynist, homophobic, whatever they think is appropriate.

Do you know that more white people than black people are killed by cops in the US? Do you know that more white people are killed by black people than the other way around in the US? Who benefits from instigating racial conflicts - maybe people with power?

Martin Luther King was a great guy and that's why he was murdered. He wanted justice for everyone, not special treatment for black people.

If you want to know where donations to BLM go watch this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sNUYTStcRs

I also recommend that you watch this video so you can better understand the situation of Moonchild, Tobin and other programmers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouKgUdqZMds

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Re: Regarding the shutdown of Patreon usage

Post by MoonMadness » 2020-06-19, 22:43

mr tribute wrote:
2020-06-19, 22:09
peorg wrote:
2020-06-19, 20:43
My question remains: What would be an acceptable approach for you to get the US government (or any other government) to come up with sustainable solutions for systemic and institutional racism?
If you grow up poor in the US, you will likely stay poor since who is going to pay for your education? It's not a racial issue.

There is no systematic and institutional racism. Why do you believe that? You need to be politically correct otherwise you'll get fired like Brendan Eich. As a white guy you have to be extremely careful so you don't step on someone's toes. Otherwise the "holier than you" people will instantly label you as a racist, misogynist, homophobic, whatever they think is appropriate.
The fact that the world has people that think the way you do IS the problem. We all have biases, and would do well to listen to well spoken figures in the black community who have experienced this "hidden" racism you deny exists. I've seen it in my own workplace. This isn't a "You better pull up your pants and buck up" situation like you think it is. Educate yourself, stop thinking of it as political correctness, and stop being part of the problem.

And actually listen to their experiences.
https://www.torontomike.com/2020/05/tor ... e_656.html

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Re: Regarding the shutdown of Patreon usage

Post by Moonchild » 2020-06-19, 22:47

peorg wrote:
2020-06-19, 20:43
did we read the same blog post
It's obvious that you are reading very selectively at this point. I already stated where this expression is quoted from, and we've been going off on tangents and details that do not matter to the topic at hand.

Which means we've landed in the phase of dialogue where I have to start constantly repeating myself because it's conveniently ignored in replies -- which I will not do. I think I'm done here. Pretty much everything has been said on my part, just re-read my previous posts.
Feel free to continue to discuss with others in a civil way.
The fact that the world has people that think the way you do IS the problem
That excludes fingerpointing, Moonmadness.
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Re: Regarding the shutdown of Patreon usage

Post by Cassette » 2020-06-20, 00:06

I'm alright with the Patreon decision here and I even agree with it. If all that Patreon did was donate to some BLM charity, I would think that the decision was an over reaction. Companies donate to charities all of the time. Do you research every charity of every business you buy from? Sure, you should research charities you personally give to, but who has the time to research every charity someone else gives to? In this case, though, if I understand correctly, Patreon itself is giving more to some people purely due to race and that is wrong. Charity should be based on need and race should never factor into it.

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Re: Regarding the shutdown of Patreon usage

Post by mr tribute » 2020-06-20, 01:43

MoonMadness wrote:
2020-06-19, 22:43
stop being part of the problem.
Well, if you live in an area where your skin color isn't the dominant skin color you are going to have problems. Minorities always have problems. It can be skin color, your language, some handicap or sexual orientation. Something that makes you part of a minority.

So yes, black people are a minority in the US just like native Americans and many others. I would not mind BLM if they focused on minorities in general, but to exclude all other minorities except black people is worrying. And more than race it's about equal economic opportunity.

Anyone with a brain understands that being a racist is stupid. If you think you are superior in some way then for example a black (wo)man will show up that is smarter, stronger, healthier and better looking than you are. It's a human condition to be humbled.

What I do mind is the "holier than you" people that preach to others. I see them as pretty stupid, because they don't seem to understand that these movements are funded by extremely wealthy people for self serving purposes.

We could lift people out of poverty, but there is a reason this isn't happening and instead anger and frustration are channeled into minority issues labeled as racism. If someone talks bad about your mom, your family or skin color - Is that really a problem if you don't have a place to live and food to eat?

Let's deal with discrimination of minorities, but let's first deal with basic living standards for every human being. Organized crime is thriving because there are so many people that see no future for themselves. Selling drugs, theft, prostitution and other unlawful activities are a much greater threat to minorities than racism.

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Re: Regarding the shutdown of Patreon usage

Post by The Bishop » 2020-06-20, 05:43

I support Pale Moon and I support your decision, Moonchild. I have done so in the past, I will do so in the future.

Alas, (American) politics have reached us too and there is no neutrality or apolitical stance possible with zealots, propagandists and (twitter) hypocrites. Even saying nothing is considered "offensive" at this point.

Yes, it is OBVIOUSLY an election year in the United States and the whole world has got to get the rabies too. (Just think of it as American Wrestling, with the democrats tag teaming with the radical left and Donald Trump being Macho Man Randy Savage. It's only a FUCKING SHOW for the voters.)

Then again, if I were in your position, I'd outright BAN every political statement and/or discussion in the forum. This is about a WEB BROWSER first and foremost. Tell people to go elsewhere if they want to pander. Because the alternative is this place becoming its own "civil war" in no time. Just remember what happened to Richard Stallman.

Oh, and get the address of a good lawyer, because doxxing and other shit is most certainly going to happen. You don't want to be "canceled", stalked by lunatics online and in real life - or have antifa riot in front of your house because you're "obviously" a "nazi".

Why I say that? Because you were already mentioned on the Kiwifarms:
https://kiwifarms.net/threads/open-sour ... st-6745097

And from this point onward the excrement is most certainly going to hit the rotary device...

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Re: Regarding the shutdown of Patreon usage

Post by athenian200 » 2020-06-20, 07:46

peorg wrote:
2020-06-19, 20:43
My question remains: What would be an acceptable approach for you to get the US government (or any other government) to come up with sustainable solutions for systemic and institutional racism?
Pardon me for interjecting again, but I think our unwillingness to take a stand on that issue is precisely why Patreon was dropped as a payment option. They insisted that we take a stance on this issue and we were not prepared to do so. We couldn't accept Patreon's seeming insistence that each of their customers take a stance on BLM and by extension several major social issues at an organizational level. The goal of this project is to develop a browser engine, and most of the people involved have backgrounds in things like C++ and JavaScript, not political science. Your question falls outside the scope of our project, and also outside our area of expertise. I should underscore that by pointing out that a lot of us who entered the field of Computer Science did so precisely because we struggle with things like social cues and the chaotic world of politics. The best answer I can give you is that people should either defer to their elected officials or to established political think-tanks run by people they trust whose job it is to influence policy and think about these things. But I can tell you that they definitely should not be asking activist groups, browser developers, and payment processing companies for serious or well-reasoned policy solutions. What I think activists get wrong is that you don't achieve lasting, meaningful change by changing hearts, but rather by changing laws and creating or modifying incentives.

Now don't get me wrong, we have some people involved in this project who support BLM, and some who don't, but we want to create an environment where people can feel comfortable working towards the common goal of developing an alternative browser engine regardless of where they stand on this particular issue. There's an argument I hear from some corners that everyone has to embrace activism to not be complicit in what the activists are opposing, and I don't accept that reasoning. I personally see a lot of value in allowing groups and projects that are not inherently political by their nature to remain non-politicized, but the reasoning may not be obvious.

By allowing BLM's supporters and detractors to work together on a shared project that has nothing to do with their political disagreement, and knowing that the project itself backs neither side, they have interaction with one another and see what one another are really like outside the context of their disagreement rather than as some abstract concept they might have in their minds of what the other side is like. They get to know each other in a context where they can be friends and not feel directly threatened by each other as they would in a political discussion. We get to see just what it is we have in common with those we disagree with, and see them as people who we might agree with on other issues. I believe that insisting that everything be politicized, that every group or organization take an activist stance, leads to tribalism and balkanization of society, which almost certainly does not discourage racism. I have a friend who has studied political science and who considers himself a globalist. We don't agree on everything politically, but we agree on one thing... we agree that neutral forums where people on both sides of a conflict can work towards common goals are important to ending or reducing conflict, and in creating incentives to avoid it.

Insisting on one particular stance that everyone must accept in a heavy-handed way as Patreon is doing drives those who disagree with that stance underground and/or towards places where only like-minded people gather, where their views will only become more extreme, and the previously non-aligned organization itself begins to lose a sense of perspective as they lose reasonable voices that could tell them when they're taking things too far in a particular direction. This leads to polarization and tension, and a mutual inability to recognize common ground or areas of common interest. The ultimate manifestation of that mentality is... well, open conflict or possibly even a war. But having shared experiences, shared goals, and lots of little reminders that we have to live together in the same society regardless of who is wrong or right, and that even if we make each other mad, we have things we can respect or admire about each other... those things can defuse tensions and make it easier for us to co-exist while we figure things out.
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Re: Regarding the shutdown of Patreon usage

Post by Marcus » 2020-06-20, 08:49

There's one sentence in the OP first post that shows his true, obnoxious, colours:
Strip the privileged groups off their privileges or apply their privileges to the less privileged groups too
This sounds so much Soviet Russia or Maoist China. Whoever expresses himself like this is an ideological radical. He's also stupid because there's an obvious contradiction (as usual with ideologies): if you transfer privileges from one group to another you're just creating a new privileged class in detriment of another, the problem persists or you created a problem where there was none.
@Moonchild I agree with your decision.

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Re: Regarding the shutdown of Patreon usage

Post by Bilbo47 » 2020-06-20, 16:00

What would be an acceptable approach for you to get any government to come up with sustainable solutions
Agree PayPal is not the preferred option. Agree we as a group here should continue to practice non-racism and make the world a better place, by ignoring all issues except those within the purview of our mission.

Please move this thread to the Off Topic area; no political discussion belongs in the Forum and Website area.

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Re: Regarding the shutdown of Patreon usage

Post by peorg » 2020-06-20, 17:48

There's one sentence in the OP first post that shows his true, obnoxious, colours:
No, at this point it just shows that you did not understand or read clearly what I wrote. Try again and don't miss the "or" or the text around the statement you quoted and grossly misrepresented.
What I think activists get wrong is that you don't achieve lasting, meaningful change by changing hearts, but rather by changing laws and creating or modifying incentives.
To get politicians to act often requires political pressure. Decades of mostly asking nicely haven't worked in regards to racial equality. Strikes and protests on the street on the other hand have had measurable impact in improving worker's rights, women's rights and, to some degree also the rights of African-Americans and other minorities. They are the steps before the elected officials are finally swayed to act. The one thing I do agree on is that not supporting the protests doesn't automatically make one an enemy of the cause.
It's obvious that you are reading very selectively at this point. I already stated where this expression is quoted from, and we've been going off on tangents and details that do not matter to the topic at hand.
You mentioned a Patreon blog post as your source. It does not seem the one I was referring to. Please provide a link so that we can, quite literally, be on the same page, since I don't intend to misrepresent your statements but rather wonder where the "front line organizations" quote is coming from, since you insinuated that I "conveniently forgot it".
If you grow up poor in the US, you will likely stay poor since who is going to pay for your education? It's not a racial issue.
True. But while it isn't directly a racial issue it does affect people of color way more often, since they tend to be much poorer than the white population on average.
There is no systematic and institutional racism. Why do you believe that? You need to be politically correct otherwise you'll get fired like Brendan Eich. As a white guy you have to be extremely careful so you don't step on someone's toes. Otherwise the "holier than you" people will instantly label you as a racist, misogynist, homophobic, whatever they think is appropriate.
Of course there is systemic and institutional racism as a sad remnant of the slavery and segregation eras. while sometimes the outrage about some statements might be overexaggerated, there is not much truth to the "as a white guy you have to be extremely careful" statement. Eich has donated towards a proposition to ban gay marriage in California (a proposition targeting the rights of a minority). How'd you call that, if not "homophobe"? Yet somehow he is the victim here? Sorry but this logic doesn't work out.
Do you know that more white people than black people are killed by cops in the US? Do you know that more white people are killed by black people than the other way around in the US? Who benefits from instigating racial conflicts - maybe people with power?
I don't intend to fall for the cui bono deflection. But about the rest:
- African-Americans make up about 13% of the US population, yet of all the 331 people who have been shot by the police in the US (whose race is known), 88 were black, amounting to 26,5%. (source)
- Black people are not only overrepresented as homicide offenders but also as homicide victims (source)
- On short notice I could not find data that more white people are killed by black people than the other way around. This might be true in relative numbers but it seems to be highly unlikely in absolute numbers. Please provide a source to clarify.

We also know that certain population groups, like young black males, have a significantly higher risk of being involved in violent crimes (source). But we also need to ask about the reasons. Black households are, by quite a large margin, the poorest ones in the US (source) and have been basically forever. If the people in power (almost all of which are or have been white) had actually cared enough, things wouldn't look that bleak anymore. While it cannot be identified as the sole cause for crime and violence (and certainly not as an excuse), there still is a clear link between them (source). Which makes sense for a number of reasons (less resources for education, less access to the job market, higher financial pressure and vulnerability to economic fluctuations etc. pp.). The solution to this often times has just been to increase police presence rather than coming up with education programs and sending in social workers to help prevent the escalation of conflicts in affected neighbourhoods. Aka: dealing with symptoms instead of root causes.

Add to this the continuous armament of the police with both money and equipement originally intended for military use while newly recruited officers often lack a solid educational background and only get a few months of training on average. The police as a law enforcement organisation with strict hierarchy and the promise to wield power also seems to attract some problematic, decidedly biased folk, who don't seem to like black people. This all adds up to black people having the lowest opinion about the police of all ethnic groups in the US (source). And there is lots to go on. Funding for schools in predominantely black vs predominantly white districts, the effects and targets of gerrymandering, local regulation and laws targeting blacks to make voting harder for them. Of freaking course there is systemic and institutional racism
Martin Luther King was a great guy and that's why he was murdered. He wanted justice for everyone, not special treatment for black people.
Unfortunately asking for justice for all meant and still means that black people need to be treated better than they currently are. Unfortunately some mistake such a change to the status quo for a "special treatment".

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Re: Regarding the shutdown of Patreon usage

Post by Moonchild » 2020-06-20, 20:31

Because of a direct question one more reply:
peorg wrote:
2020-06-20, 17:48
where the "front line organizations" quote is coming from, since you insinuated that I "conveniently forgot it".
I said you were "reading selectively" - I'd appreciate it if you do not quote me with things I did not say.
I mentioned the source as being the e-mail i was sent from Patreon. I'm assuming everyone with an account received the same e-mail.
Here's the relevant quote from it:
The Patreon Team wrote: To help in the fight against racism and police brutality, we’re donating $50,000 to Black Lives Matter and other organizations on the front line. We’re also going to increase our financial support to creators of color on Patreon
Not only that, the mail also made a clear statement that Patreon feels compelled to use their influence to drive political change, stating that remaining neutral and uninvolved is, from this point forward at least, unacceptable to them:
The Patreon Team wrote: As a company and a community, Patreon has a platform with the power to drive change, and if we fail to leverage that platform, we become part of the problem.
EDIT: I had posted some statistics/numbers here to put peorg's numbers in perspective, but realized it's irrelevant to this thread.

That aside, this reads at this point reads as a well-rehearsed statement, and no longer as the regular dialogue this (kind of) started out as, which was the only reason I let this thread continue.
If it continues to be less about Patreon and my decision to terminate my involvement with them, and more about politics and racism in general, I'll be forced to lock it and redirect you to dedicated fora better suited for this kind of discussion. it may actually have run its course since I think most questions surrounding this have been answered (and it's clear you can't bring anything compelling to the table to achieve what you hoped: change my mind on the matter).
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Re: Regarding the shutdown of Patreon usage

Post by peorg » 2020-06-20, 23:15

I said you were "reading selectively" - I'd appreciate it if you do not quote me with things I did not say.
I was quoting your very words from this post, which were:
BLM and "other organizations on the front line" (don't conveniently forget that other half) are by definition extremist, or they would not be on the front line.
Forgetting things can happen. Im not picky about this, since its been a dense discussion and everyone has other things on his mind too.

Thanks for providing the quote as it helps me understand where you are coming from. I didn't receive that email, so this is where the confusion stems from.

As for the initial topic, the removal of Patreon and my criticism regarding the reasoning: I've made the points I can make about this and thus can only contribute to remaining discussions that are not directly about the main topic. And as I said, I fully respect that this decision is up to you and if my points weren't compelling enough for you, then so be it. I've no issue accepting friendly disagreement as a legitimate end of a civil discussion.

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Re: Regarding the shutdown of Patreon usage

Post by Moonchild » 2020-06-21, 10:25

peorg wrote:
2020-06-20, 23:15
I was quoting your very words from this post,
Ah, the way you worded it it read like I was saying you conveniently forgot where I said I quoted it from, which I never said.

Otherwise seems like we're indeed done here. Locking this thread.
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