Some useful CSS properties currently unsupported
Forum rules
Please keep everything here strictly on-topic.
This board is meant for Pale Moon source code development related subjects only like code snippets, patches, specific bugs, git, the repositories, etc.
This is not for tech support! Please do not post tech support questions in the "Development" board!
Please make sure not to use this board for support questions. Please post issues with specific websites, extensions, etc. in the relevant boards for those topics.
Please keep things on-topic as this forum will be used for reference for Pale Moon development. Expect topics that aren't relevant as such to be moved or deleted.
Please keep everything here strictly on-topic.
This board is meant for Pale Moon source code development related subjects only like code snippets, patches, specific bugs, git, the repositories, etc.
This is not for tech support! Please do not post tech support questions in the "Development" board!
Please make sure not to use this board for support questions. Please post issues with specific websites, extensions, etc. in the relevant boards for those topics.
Please keep things on-topic as this forum will be used for reference for Pale Moon development. Expect topics that aren't relevant as such to be moved or deleted.
Some useful CSS properties currently unsupported
I'm wondering if there is any plan to implement some useful CSS that is generally well-supported by other browsers but not currently supported by Pale Moon.
The ones I'm thinking of are CSS columns, text-underline-position and scrollbar-color*. These are listed in what I would consider to be order of importance. I can probably come up with several more if you're ever short of things to do.
I've checked the repo and these properties don't have an issue assigned at the moment.
*If you really want to get cool and groovy, you could even implement the various ::-webkit-scrollbar properties, which are far more versatile than the Firefox option.
The ones I'm thinking of are CSS columns, text-underline-position and scrollbar-color*. These are listed in what I would consider to be order of importance. I can probably come up with several more if you're ever short of things to do.
I've checked the repo and these properties don't have an issue assigned at the moment.
*If you really want to get cool and groovy, you could even implement the various ::-webkit-scrollbar properties, which are far more versatile than the Firefox option.
Re: Some useful CSS properties currently unsupported
The first two work just fine.
Re: Some useful CSS properties currently unsupported
Define "well supported" when almost every browser is Chrome.
Re: Some useful CSS properties currently unsupported
scrollbar-color really isn't high priority. Scrollbars are by definition system elements and will be system-styled. Replacing that with something independent of system widgets just to be able to change the color is largely unnecessary sugar and will completely break with OS integration. Scrollbars will look different depending on whether you are on version x or y of Windows, Mac or Linux (and Linux is even worse with a plethora of theming engines that can be freely swapped out). If you make that "custom" then it will massively reduce usability of the control by breaking uniformity and intuitiveness of the control. We already see this with custom-styled input boxes, arrows and lists.
However, if you really want to control it you can do the work in page content: hide the scrollbars and draw your own -- and you'll have full control. Too much work? well then keep in mind that you're asking us to do the same work and then some.
However, if you really want to control it you can do the work in page content: hide the scrollbars and draw your own -- and you'll have full control. Too much work? well then keep in mind that you're asking us to do the same work and then some.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
Re: Some useful CSS properties currently unsupported
I'd say careful patches would be welcome but it should also be behind a pref.
Re: Some useful CSS properties currently unsupported
Tried them. They work with FF and Chrome/derivatives. Couldn't get them to work with PM. Grid works. Columns didn't seem to, and text-decoration-position: under; doesn't.
Well yeah, "almost every browser" is near enough to well-supported.New Tobin Paradigm wrote: ↑2021-02-25, 22:10Define "well supported" when almost every browser is Chrome.
Re: Some useful CSS properties currently unsupported
I'm not asking for anyone to completely rewrite all scrollbars. I was just wondering if some of the newer CSS would be supported at some point. Obviously they will still pick up the basic OS/version styling. That's fine.Moonchild wrote: ↑2021-02-25, 22:13scrollbar-color really isn't high priority. Scrollbars are by definition system elements and will be system-styled. Replacing that with something independent of system widgets just to be able to change the color is largely unnecessary sugar and will completely break with OS integration. Scrollbars will look different depending on whether you are on version x or y of Windows, Mac or Linux (and Linux is even worse with a plethora of theming engines that can be freely swapped out). If you make that "custom" then it will massively reduce usability of the control by breaking uniformity and intuitiveness of the control. We already see this with custom-styled input boxes, arrows and lists.
However, if you really want to control it you can do the work in page content: hide the scrollbars and draw your own -- and you'll have full control. Too much work? well then keep in mind that you're asking us to do the same work and then some.
Standard scrollbars are a bit of an eyesore on a lot of themes, particularly dark ones. There are various workarounds for this, such as using partial opacity on the relevant element in combination with a higher contrast text colour than other elements on the page. Done correctly, that can give even text contrast against all backgrounds combined with a scrollbar that won't burn your eyes out when they are adjusted for a dark theme.
However, it's still a workaround, and if it was possible to target the scrollbar directly via CSS this would be more versatile and more convenient. In a case like this it's not so much "sugar" as balancing the various elements of the theme for greater ease of use. I'm not saying you have to do it. I'm just pointing out some of the reasons why someone might want to.
Re: Some useful CSS properties currently unsupported
Actually, you are
System widgets can't be custom-styled. To support this keyword, all scrollbar code in the browser must be rewritten.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
Re: Some useful CSS properties currently unsupported
You may have missed my point. You can't argue on the basis of a "well supported" feature these days when almost every browser is the SAME browser.Gumboots wrote: ↑2021-02-26, 06:18Well yeah, "almost every browser" is near enough to well-supported.New Tobin Paradigm wrote: ↑2021-02-25, 22:10Define "well supported" when almost every browser is Chrome.
Re: Some useful CSS properties currently unsupported
I'm not too sure what you are seeing differently, but admittedly regarding text-underline-position, MDN says using "under" should not cross any descendants but the Pale Moon implementation might do that.
Still, it would be nice to see some screenshots to understand what you mean by "not working".
Re: Some useful CSS properties currently unsupported
OK, you're the browser expert. Me no savvy browser innards. I just thought that if FF can throw in their new scrollbar-color property then maybe it wouldn't be a huge drama in PM. If it's a huge drama, I understand why you wouldn't want to prioritise it.
I got your point. My reply was a joke. Still, although Chrome and its derivatives (Opera, Edge, etc) have the majority of the market FF still has a decent chunk. Then there's Mac/iOS and its horrors, which some people are strangely addicted to. AFAIK all of these support the properties I was asking about.New Tobin Paradigm wrote: ↑2021-02-26, 13:12You may have missed my point. You can't argue on the basis of a "well supported" feature these days when almost every browser is the SAME browser.
Ok, I'll have another play with it, and whip up a basic live text page if I still can't get it to work.
Re: Some useful CSS properties currently unsupported
They're down to around 3% now, from a peak of 35-36% in 2009.
"One hosts to look them up, one DNS to find them and in the darkness BIND them."
Linux Mint 21 Xfce x64 on HP i5-5200 laptop, 12 GB RAM.
AutoPageColor|PermissionsPlus|PMPlayer|Pure URL|RecordRewind|TextFX
Linux Mint 21 Xfce x64 on HP i5-5200 laptop, 12 GB RAM.
AutoPageColor|PermissionsPlus|PMPlayer|Pure URL|RecordRewind|TextFX
Re: Some useful CSS properties currently unsupported
Overall, yes, but Pale Moon isn't competing in the mobile browser space anyway AFAIK. FF is around 8% on desktop (plus or minus, depending on who you believe). Safari about the same. Chrome/Edge/Opera (all the same, really) have about 80%.
FF is negligible on mobile, but Safari is a lot higher than on desktop.
FF is negligible on mobile, but Safari is a lot higher than on desktop.
Re: Some useful CSS properties currently unsupported
This is why I told you off the bat what it meant to support it. But I guess that quarter didn't drop.
It's just not something we should focus on when there are much more pressing things we have to divide our time among.
That is why was said:
...meaning we are welcoming anyone who wants to contribute to this which is a "nice to have for aesthetics but non-breaking" to do the work necessary for it.New Tobin Paradigm wrote: ↑2021-02-25, 22:22I'd say careful patches would be welcome but it should also be behind a pref.
As it is, we probably need to do custom scrollbar work anyway to make scrollbar-width: thin; work consistently on the various Linux theme engines anyway, so if that's all tied together, then adding a colour variation (and additional styling for full-width scroll bars with colour) should be less work. I suspect some interdependency there.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite