Tab Hibernation and Frustration

Suggestions and feature requests for the Pale Moon browser

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beansandfranks
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Tab Hibernation and Frustration

Unread post by beansandfranks » 2018-10-30, 18:17

Hi Folks,

I am a long-time user and fan of Pale Moon (I'm now at 28.1.0), and I very much appreciate the work of the Pale Moon team. A few suggestions below.

* Focus on the key competitive advantages of PM vs FFX 57+ and the various Chrome browsers --
Among these advantages as I see them are:
* Ability to run certain software (at user discretion and risk) such Silverlight, Flash, etc. Yes I know about these being discontinued.
* Certain very popular pre-FFX 57 add-ons/extensions such as: VideoDownloadHelper V 6.X (now balky, unwieldy in FFX 57+)
* Ability to run at a lower resource footprint than some of the browsers

* Improve the functioning of the PM plug-in container, which often fails me. Example: Silverlight runs better in IE than in PM. Yes, I know about MS fading Silverlight, etc.

* Borrow ideas from other browsers. Example: My fav Chrome-style browser is Vivaldi. By far. Vivialdi has a built in ability to hibernate open tabs thereby lowering the browser's resource footprint. This is a very key feature, IMO.

Look, I hope you guys are successful, but absent this sort of strategic realistic self-analysis and action, I fear that PM may be destined to fade in usage even when there is a real niche need for a quality alternative to Chrome and FFX browsers.

My best to all.

BF

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Re: Tab Hibernation and Frustration

Unread post by Isengrim » 2018-10-30, 18:31

beansandfranks wrote:Ability to run at a lower resource footprint than some of the browsers
This has never been a goal of the project, merely a side-effect of removing cruft and features deemed to be unnecessary, such as multi-process architecture and telemetry.
beansandfranks wrote:Vivialdi has a built in ability to hibernate open tabs thereby lowering the browser's resource footprint. This is a very key feature, IMO.
Extensions are the reason Pale Moon doesn't have (or need) as much built-in functionality as other browsers. :)
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Re: Tab Hibernation and Frustration

Unread post by beansandfranks » 2018-10-31, 04:21

Tab hibernation in Vivaldi is built into the browser; no extensions needed. Better than hibernation achieved via extension (as say in FFX).
Resource footprint -- That matters, actually, given the resource hogging of some browsers in extended usage sessions.

Look someone can always say naw, don't need this or get an extension, etc.
BUT the fact remains that the PM team needs to constantly assess the competitive landscape and focus on what it can deliver that fills a need not satisfied by another (or fewer) alternative browsers. Otherwise, it will fade in usage. Guaranteed. Book it. If so, that will be a sad day because it may have been preventable.

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Re: Tab Hibernation and Frustration

Unread post by Moonchild » 2018-10-31, 08:15

Extensions are the reason Pale Moon doesn't have (or need) as much built-in functionality as other browsers.

Extensibility is a key design goal of Pale Moon. The amount of built-in functionality is kept lower ON PURPOSE and limited to what in our opinion directly benefits the vast majority.
Tab unloading/suspension is not one of these things, and there is therefore an extension to do this. USE IT.

In fact, focusing on this extensibility inherently means the lower resource footprint -- the leaner and meaner the core is, the less it will use. the more additional functionality and complexity is built in, the heavier the browser will get. You can't have both.
Last edited by Moonchild on 2018-10-31, 08:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tab Hibernation and Frustration

Unread post by cosmo666 » 2019-01-04, 04:25

I was about to post a new 'suggestion', but this appears to cover the general problem which I believe needs to be addressed. Here's how I describe it...
Re: Hostile Content Pages
I'm concerned about what I call: 'toxic content syndrome', wherein, the moment I open a URL, 'the content' launches a bunch of exploits intent upon surveillance and/or expropriation of local resources, for whatever purposes current language conventions allow -- non-stop, even after the requested page has loaded. I'm sure most of it is advertising related, but the issue is: they recognize no limits on what they do.

While I appreciate the fact that there are some powerful add-ons which enable us to manage various aspects of this, I honestly don't have time to study in detail all the various exploits going on in the background when I load a given page. If nothing else, I'd like to be able hit a 'freeze button' on any page I want to, and cause all processing activity on that page to halt immediately.
I think that puts me on the same page with 'beansandfranks' as far as what I believe is needed. However, having read Moonchild's responses, I entirely concur with his rationale. (Suggestions as to which add-ons he's referring to, welcome.)

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Re: Tab Hibernation and Frustration

Unread post by yami_ » 2019-01-04, 11:17

The add-on is probably Lull the Tabs.
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Re: Tab Hibernation and Frustration

Unread post by Michaell » 2019-01-04, 13:20

"Lulling" or freezing tabs is not addressing the cause. Anybody using any browser without protection is asking for trouble. It's up to the user to block content.
old way: RequestPolicy + NoScript*
better way: uMatrix or uBlock Origin (or both)
And various other extensions and config tweaks but those are at least a good start.

*not supported by PM team if using this
Last edited by Michaell on 2019-01-04, 21:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tab Hibernation and Frustration

Unread post by Moonchild » 2019-01-04, 14:17

NotWorthKnowing wrote:"Lulling" or freezing tabs is not addressing the cause. Anybody using any browser without protection is asking for trouble.
The problem doesn't necessarily have to be addressed at the "cause" side; it can also be addressed at the "effect" side. One may prefer not to deal with the headaches of blocking content in pages and using them fully as-intended by their authors, but not have to deal with the drawback of those pages being exceedingly heavy. Tab unloading is the go-to solution in that case.
In addition, even if you block content in pages by whatever preferred method, it may still be a good thing to unload unused tabs after a while, especially if you are using lots of tabs and not all of them are necessarily required for your current work or activities.
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Re: Tab Hibernation and Frustration

Unread post by cosmo666 » 2019-01-04, 20:18

Thanks to all for the suggestions regarding existing add-ons.

The discreet solution I've outlined on my personal TODO list is to automate (by way of an add-on I'll need to either hack, or build from scratch), which automates a manual process I've tried, which is an obvious kludge with limited effectiveness, but provides immediate relief in some cases: do a Save-As HTML to a local folder, then reload the the HTML file in place of the original. The only reason I haven't implemented this already is that I've never built an add-on for Pale Moon (or Firefox for that matter), and I don't know how much time to budget for just familiarizing myself with that process. Its something I need to do regardless, so when I get around to it, will post the results.

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Re: Toxic Browsing/The Importance of FOS Browsers

Unread post by cosmo666 » 2019-01-04, 21:02

Just some observations/opinions re: changing on-line standards, and the role independent browsers like Pale Moon play in preserving a free and open Internet:

http://www.postmarks.com/2019/open_internet.html

(For what its worth.)

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Re: Tab Hibernation and Frustration

Unread post by Thehandyman1957 » 2019-01-05, 01:35

Perhaps I'm being overly simple, but if you don't have time to learn how to use
available add on's that would give the relief you desire. Why would you take
even more time learning how to build an add on from scratch? :think:
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Re: Tab Hibernation and Frustration

Unread post by Michaell » 2019-01-05, 03:06

A few simpler alternatives to consider:
- use the Reader View extension;
- save a screenshot of the page (e.g., camera in devtools)
- use Open With extension to open page in another browser* that has JS turned off and maybe other things disabled (images, video, etc.). Or just use that browser to begin with for the known sites that cause trouble.

*There are some really small browsers that use the IE engine on Windows (not sure about other OSes).
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Re: Tab Hibernation and Frustration

Unread post by Moonchild » 2019-01-05, 03:37

Off-topic:
cosmo666 wrote:Just some observations/opinions re: changing on-line standards
Unfortunately your linked article is mostly heavily politically-tainted rhetoric and doesn't say anything about on-line standards nor does it provide any observations about the role independent browsers like Pale Moon play in preserving a free and open Internet -- in fact, all the article clearly states is that there is a dangerous trend of dissociation by companies from the consumers they are serving. It doesn't seem to be very relevant at all and seems rather off-topic for this forum.
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Re: Tab Hibernation and Frustration

Unread post by vannilla » 2019-01-05, 12:51

Thehandyman1957 wrote:Perhaps I'm being overly simple, but if you don't have time to learn how to use
available add on's that would give the relief you desire. Why would you take
even more time learning how to build an add on from scratch? :think:
Off-topic:
Well, one could say "teach a man to fish..."

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Re: Tab Hibernation and Frustration

Unread post by cosmo666 » 2019-01-05, 17:24

it provide any observations about the role independent browsers like Pale Moon play in preserving a free and open Internet -- in fact, all the article clearly states is that there is a dangerous trend of dissociation by companies from the consumers they are serving. It doesn't seem to be very relevant at all and seems rather off-topic for this forum.
The topic of this thread (as I see it), is how the person using the browser can successfully cope with browser content which actively expropriates end-user resources (without permission), and/or seeks to exploit opportunities created by current language standards (or weaknesses in the processor security model -- 'meltdown/spectre', Intel's Management Engine, for example), to surreptitiously surveill and/or manipulate/compromise end-user platforms without their knowledge.

The op-ed referenced points out factual realities as to aggressive ongoing attempts by governments (first and foremost, the US government) to persuade and/or coerce (if necessary) major corporate stake-holders in Internet commerce, into facilitating the presence of exploits in their products which allow government entities to accomplish their political ends. (Ends which, in the United States at least, violate our 4th & 5th amendment constitutional rights.) To dismiss those realities by characterizing them as 'political rhetoric', suggests ignorance of the subject matter.

A modern browser amounts to a multi-lingual multi-tasking run-time system, routinely accessible by parties unknown, at the behest of any remote content provider (also unknown, which may or may not be seeking to exploit end-users). As such, it is a prime-target for governments seeking to expand avenues of passive surveillance over their citizens. Browsers are also a prime target for corporate interests seeking to control the exchange of private-origin content, hence creating a common-interest with counterparts in government so-called 'security agencies'.

Bottom-line: I think it quite reasonable to raise questions with browser developers as to how best to secure the privacy of the local platform. I did, and I got your answer(s), for which I thank you.

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Re: Tab Hibernation and Frustration

Unread post by Moonchild » 2019-01-05, 17:44

You have severely misunderstood the topic as well as the nature of this forum.

I can't even begin to explain why the following statement is overly generalized and just plain wrong on many levels:
cosmo666 wrote:A modern browser amounts to a multi-lingual multi-tasking run-time system, routinely accessible by parties unknown, at the behest of any remote content provider (also unknown, which may or may not be seeking to exploit end-users). As such, it is a prime-target for governments seeking to expand avenues of passive surveillance over their citizens.
... so I'll just give you one thing to think about:
A web browser is a networking/web client. Any action taken by the client is a direct result of user action. It is not accessible by anyone but the user, it does not respond to unsolicited inbound requests, and any passive surveillance will invariably happen outside of the user space the browser operates in, at the network level.

You're free to have your own opinion on the matter and how in your opinion big brother can watch you through your use of the web, but any political discussions should be taken to fora more dedicated to general discussions of the larger plans playing out on the Internet, and not precipitate as a "by the by" starter on topics on a primarily community and support forum for end users of a web browser.
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