Well, I like it, mostly

General discussion and chat (archived)
26F36DD

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by 26F36DD » 2013-11-30, 23:11

I like to download my PM plain and then customize it with a bunch of add-ons. I don't want it to come with a bunch of corporate features already decided.

GaiaSmith

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by GaiaSmith » 2013-12-01, 23:36

At last! A thread where I can post my rant about the damned ToT (Tabs on Top), not to mention that hideous orange button!! I moved to PM because of the ToT, and have never looked back. I read all the rationalizations Mozi spewed, and it actually seems logical unless a user, such as myself, prefers to keep the Bookmarks Toolbar always visible and the browser UN Maximized. In that case, with ToT, BMTB lives there just below the Navigation Bar, on every single tab--which, IMHO, breaks the continuity and the logic of ToT. It's in the way of the tab contents. :silent:

Not at all pleased with that, I found a couple of add ons which made ALL toolbars &/or components movable, including those in the (long since "optional") status/addon bar, (which PM kept, by default; thank you, MC). Then I put the BMTB on the same row as the menu bar to save an entire row. When my screen is occasionally maximized, ALL my controls, tabs, etc., are still a click away, and occupy only two rows rather than 3...
That being said,
Extensions are an integral part of the Firefox/Pale Moon design
the thing that absolutely INFURIATES :evil: me is when the CORE is changed in such manner as to IRREPARABLY break a favorite extension. The one that I, and (based on my research even here in PM Forum, see:http://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1029) thousands of others relied upon was the dearly departed https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/bookmark-favicon-changer/?src=ss which I first alluded to here: http://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3264. Since the update to V24x, I am STILL icon-less, only in a different place now...I'll start a new thread about that.
MC said:
All in all, it depends on how you want to use the browser. I'll make sure to keep tabs on either top or bottom configurable, because different people and different screen sizes are better served with different approaches.

Which is one of many reason I love PM. Speaking of MC doing the right thing, may I ask a HUGE favor? With the release of 24.2.0, and this:
New advanced feature: Later versions of the Firefox code will automatically place the browser window fully on a visible portion of the screen. If you prefer having the browser window positioned partially off-screen and want to prevent this automatic resizing and repositioning when starting a new session, create a new boolean preference in about:config called browser.sessionstore.exactPos and set it to true.
...please, will you make it not so? As I mentioned above, I almost never use my screen maximized, as I need frequent access to my desktop. I don't know how or where to add said code--I only know how to toggle/change a preference in about:config; NOT how to put it in there in the first place. Somebody tell me how? It has to be EASY, as I don't grok 'tech guru'.

Please? Anyone?
TIA,
Gaia

Rohugh

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by Rohugh » 2013-12-01, 23:57

GaiaSmith wrote: If you prefer having the browser window positioned partially off-screen and want to prevent this automatic resizing and repositioning when starting a new session, create a new boolean preference in about:config called browser.sessionstore.exactPos and set it to true...please, will you make it not so? As I mentioned above, I almost never use my screen maximized, as I need frequent access to my desktop. I don't know how or where to add said code--I only know how to toggle/change a preference in about:config; NOT how to put it in there in the first place. Somebody tell me how? It has to be EASY, as I don't grok 'tech guru'.

Please? Anyone?
TIA,
Gaia
Type about:config into the address bar and hit enter.
Right click on a blank area.
Choose New>Boolean.
Type "browser.sessionstore.exactPos" exactly (without the quotes)
Click OK
Find it now in the list and double click it to set it to true.

Open "Options" from the PM app tab top left
In General set the "When Pale Moon Starts" to "Show my windows and tabs from last time".

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35473
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by Moonchild » 2013-12-02, 00:04

First, you have to realize that programming an add-on for a rather rapidly evolving piece of software like a web browser means that the add-on developer will have to also maintain the extensions programmed - it's not a one-shot deal. The core of the browser HAS to evolve to implement evolving standards. The other side of the coin is of course mozilla's incessant tinkering with the browser UI code (since v22/23 really, when the first preparations for their Australis "refresh" were finding their way into Firefox) which has broken many add-ons, and extension developers getting tired of having to rethink/recode their work every release. That being said, it's a bit skewed to approach this as "the core purposefully breaking add-on compatibility"; it's rather "the add-ons not keeping up".

Second, as for the new feature: nothing has changed in the defaults. The browser will always make sure the window is completely on-screen when you restore windows and tabs from last time. Only if you don't want this to happen, you have to add a new preference as explained by Rohugh.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

GaiaSmith

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by GaiaSmith » 2013-12-02, 01:38

Rohugh said:
Type about:config into the address bar and hit enter.
Right click on a blank area. Choose New>Boolean.Type "browser.sessionstore.exactPos" exactly (without the quotes)
Click OK
Find it now in the list and double click it to set it to true.
INBOX.gif
INBOX.gif (5.93 KiB) Viewed 2959 times
OMG!!!! It's THAT simple? I'm SO freakin' excited!!! I might be able to fix my icon thing myself, without having to teach myself CSS at age 60! HOT damn!
confetti.gif
confetti.gif (2.83 KiB) Viewed 2959 times
Oh thank you, Rohugh, from the bottom of my heart!

GaiaSmith

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by GaiaSmith » 2013-12-02, 02:52

Oh Moonchild; I fear I have done it again--inadvertently caused offense. I assure you, that was not, and never has been, my intention. I adore you and Pale Moon. I keep wishing I could see your face, just once.
>>Stuff snipped for brevity. My apologies.
Moonchild wrote: ... it's not a one-shot deal. The core of the browser HAS to evolve...of course mozilla's incessant tinkering with the browser UI code...which has broken many add-ons...
I do understand this, honestly I do.
...and extension developers getting tired of having to rethink/recode their work every release...it's rather "the add-ons not keeping up".

Yes, I understand this, too--I did not mean to imply otherwise, and I am ashamed it came across that way. :oops: Most of the many, many add-ons I use I have been able to 'fix' myself (editing the release version, etc., that can be done in the config files), but the above referenced extension is apparently so perfect that no one (so far?) has been able to resurrect it. There are pages and pages of work-arounds...but I digress.
Second...nothing has changed in the defaults.
Perhaps I misunderstood the "...want to prevent this automatic resizing and repositioning" advice you gave on the Release Notes page. Again, my bad. It might be more relevant to touch screens? I just want my browser to re-open like I left it, that's all. Like it's always been--this old fart doesn't adapt to change very well. It was hard enough to re-align my thinking from Mozi Suites to Fx... :? And damn it all, I still miss it.

Peace/out
Gaia

opera1215b1748

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by opera1215b1748 » 2013-12-02, 09:50

26F36DD wrote:I like to download my PM plain and then customize it with a bunch of add-ons. I don't want it to come with a bunch of corporate features already decided.
With such an attitude we will soon be getting a browser capable of displaying only Latin characters, all others will require a heap of add-ons...
:(
And the Back-button will be an add-on too!

(This is not an attack on MC, just a general rant about the pitiful state some people agree to have their browser out of the box!)

Yes, some obscure gimmicry should be done though add-ons, but not the BASIC functionality!

access2godzilla

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by access2godzilla » 2013-12-02, 10:29

@opera1215b1748, I don't know why you are so intolerant to installing add-ons (it seems you come to this forum just to post the aforementioned fact). Pale Moon does provide the basic required functionality; any more than that is in the scope of add-ons and extensions.

PM is open source, so instead of persecuting MC on adding features to his browser that fall out of the scope of a browser, fork it and add your own functionality.

Thank you.

opera1215b1748

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by opera1215b1748 » 2013-12-02, 10:46

access2godzilla wrote:...instead of persecuting MC on adding features to his browser that fall out of the scope of a browser...
The only feature I was asking for is to show the full information about the current HTTPS connection. If this is "out of the scope of a browser" - why the pad-lock then?!

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35473
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by Moonchild » 2013-12-02, 11:09

GaiaSmith wrote: I fear I have done it again--inadvertently caused offense. I assure you, that was not, and never has been, my intention.
Rest assured, you have caused no offense at all!
opera1215b1748 wrote:Yes, some obscure gimmicry should be done though add-ons, but not the BASIC functionality!
I disagree, since all (not just some) obscure gimmickery should be done through add-ons, and including all more advanced functionality that would be "too much information" for the average user.

The question here is "What is basic functionality?" - It is a balance between satisfying the majority of the users, providing enough extras for power users, but without adding so much "fluff" that it will slow down the browser or load it with functionality that hardly anyone will need or use.
I think the current feature set is a good balance.
You have to think in shades of grey, not black and white. It's not an "all or nothing" scenario. You can't put everything in, and you can't leave everything out.

To take the padlock example:
Only people who are focusing heavily on the innards of cryptography are interested in key length or algorithm. That is obscure gimmickery.
Everyone else wants to know they are having "a secure connection" and a basic level of security if applicable. That is basic functionality.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

User avatar
Night Wing
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 5151
Joined: 2011-10-03, 10:19
Location: Piney Woods of Southeast Texas, USA

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by Night Wing » 2013-12-02, 11:45

Moonchild wrote:
opera1215b1748 wrote:Yes, some obscure gimmicry should be done though add-ons, but not the BASIC functionality!
I disagree, since all (not just some) obscure gimmickery should be done through add-ons, and including all more advanced functionality that would be "too much information" for the average user.

The question here is "What is basic functionality?" - It is a balance between satisfying the majority of the users, providing enough extras for power users, but without adding so much "fluff" that it will slow down the browser or load it with functionality that hardly anyone will need or use.
I think the current feature set is a good balance.
You have to think in shades of grey, not black and white. It's not an "all or nothing" scenario. You can't put everything in, and you can't leave everything out.

To take the padlock example:
Only people who are focusing heavily on the innards of cryptography are interested in key length or algorithm. That is obscure gimmickery.
Everyone else wants to know they are having "a secure connection" and a basic level of security if applicable. That is basic functionality.
Your comments and the padlock example given perfectly explain what a non technical average user (like myself) wants in a browser and this is why when I'm using Windows, I use Pale Moon as my default browser and have relegated Firefox as my backup browser.
Linux Mint 21.3 (Virginia) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
MX Linux 23.2 (Libretto) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
Linux Debian 12.5 (Bookworm) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox

opera1215b1748

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by opera1215b1748 » 2013-12-02, 19:09

Why not IE then?
It also has just a pad-lock (at least IEv8).

dark_moon

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by dark_moon » 2013-12-02, 19:22

Cause IE is slow&unsecure and didn't have the many addons.

User avatar
Moonchild
Pale Moon guru
Pale Moon guru
Posts: 35473
Joined: 2011-08-28, 17:27
Location: Motala, SE
Contact:

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by Moonchild » 2013-12-02, 20:12

opera1215b1748 wrote:Why not IE then?
It also has just a pad-lock (at least IEv8).
I hope you're not trying to troll, now.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

GaiaSmith

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by GaiaSmith » 2013-12-03, 00:21

opera1215b1748 wrote:Why not IE then?
It also has just a pad-lock (at least IEv8).
Cuz everybody with at least half a brain knoz that IE(dot)sux...? ;)
Last edited by GaiaSmith on 2013-12-19, 02:09, edited 1 time in total.

ninaholic

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by ninaholic » 2013-12-03, 00:32

IE is always the first thing I disable in "Add/Remove Windows Components" on a new laptop. I always keep a Pale Moon exe on a USB stick so I don't even need to use IE to install it. Hasta la vista baby! :D

Oddly, IE still works after the exes in the "C:\Program Files\Internet Explorer" directory are removed though.

User avatar
tribaljet
Lunatic
Lunatic
Posts: 468
Joined: 2012-06-06, 19:45
Location: Portugal
Contact:

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by tribaljet » 2013-12-03, 00:37

Now now, don't be mean. After all, IE has an excellent quality:
Image
Portuguese translator of Pale Moon

opera1215b1748

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by opera1215b1748 » 2013-12-03, 13:05

Moonchild wrote:
opera1215b1748 wrote:Why not IE then?
It also has just a pad-lock (at least IEv8).
I hope you're not trying to troll, now.
Of course not!
If someone is after seeing "just a pad-lock" - then any browser will do.

Some posters here sound more trolling than one could say about my post. Unwashed masses will never use PM - they have no idea PM exists, they do not know what a browser is, not to mention there could be different flavors of browsers.
Those who do use PM - are NOT "technical average" users.

OK, to conclude (before the administrative measures are applied), I mostly like PM, you, MC, have promised to have a look at HTTPS-related info display, I'll wait.
PM is good browser - the only one with reasonable development plan.

(I may look cross, but this is not because of PM - it is because of the otherbrowser fate)

ninaholic

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by ninaholic » 2013-12-03, 22:35

opera1215b1748 wrote:Those who do use PM - are NOT "technical average" users.
For me, I was not liking the 5-10 second Javascript hangs I was getting in Firefox on my Atom netbook, and then once Firefox started to implement their "hidden background program to force you to upgrade" in Firefox 12, I decided it was time to look for something lighter and less intrusive. Pale Moon was the first option I heard about that was 32-bit, and I saw no reason to go back to Firefox after using it (I kept trying Firefox out again every few versions, and the performance/stability did not ever come close to matching Pale Moon again for me until version 24). IE was always a complete joke to me performance/compatibility/security/stability wise. I wouldn't say it was technical skills but more "regular user observations" and "dissatisfaction with everything else" that made me try out Pale Moon. When you browse the internet 6+ hours a day, you want something that you actually enjoy using (similar to getting a job that doesn't piss you off all day every single day). :)

User avatar
Night Wing
Knows the dark side
Knows the dark side
Posts: 5151
Joined: 2011-10-03, 10:19
Location: Piney Woods of Southeast Texas, USA

Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Unread post by Night Wing » 2013-12-03, 23:10

ninaholic wrote:I always keep a Pale Moon exe on a USB stick so I don't even need to use IE to install it. Hasta la vista baby! :D
I always keep the newest Pale Moon installer on my......."5" USB flash drives......just in case I would lose or termporarily misplace a flash drive. :) One can never be too careful. ;)
Linux Mint 21.3 (Virginia) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
MX Linux 23.2 (Libretto) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
Linux Debian 12.5 (Bookworm) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox

Locked