Change in approach for Pale Moon web identification

[TWB404]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6200 lol Forgot to post a link to the announcement.

I read the above announcement and just had to say something. It seems to prove what I have said about the big boys who control the web. They are going to determine who plays in the sand box and who doesn't. Mozilla is on a slow road to death and is being paid by Goggle to do it. Now that someone decides to branch off and take a stand the big boys decide they will block the user from using their sites by claiming the browser is not acceptable to them. This part bothers me the most "and even embedded web administration pages in routers". That makes it appear that they decided long ago who is going to play in the sand box and built in that decision in some of the routers out there.

I am asking each of you to post sites that won't allow a user who has Pale Moon to use them. We can call it the web of shame replies. We can also start emailing these sites to try to convince them that it is time to change and move into the modern world.

[TWB404]

The only way to get the site to recognize Pale Moon as a legit browser is for people to email them and raise a little cane with them. Since Google probably has me on their spam list for emailing them countless times calling them evil ******* it would be useless for me to send them one. I had a friend who uses iCloud send one off to Apple asking them to start accepting Pale Moon as a acceptable browser to use when accessing their site. She is also trying to get others that she knows to do the same for me.

There is hope, my local grocery store refused to allow me to sign in to get their specials for the week when I switched to v25. I sent a polite but firm email telling them that they can not decide which browser I use. I explain to them that Pale Moon was a legit browser and sent them a link to your site. A week later they now accept Pale Moon and I can sign in and get my weekly fix on what is on sale.

I can at least say one good thing about Yahoo since the release of v25, I have yet to experience any problem what so ever signing in and checking email or going to any of their other services.

In the USA it is illegal for one company to restrict the trade of another. It is also illegal to conspire with other companies to restrict trade of a competitor. I am sure other countries have similar laws. Below is the Department of Justice and the Federal Trade Commission email addresses. I am more then ready to email them asking for a investigation be opened into why these major players are working together to restrict Pale moon from being used as a browser. The only wheel that gets paid attention to is the one that is squeaking. My problem is no one has yet to provide a list of those who are doing this.

askdoj@usdoj.gov

antitrust@ftc.gov

PLEASE POST WHO IS NOT ACCEPTING PALE MOON

[Antonius32]

I like the idea! But wouldn't "PLEASE POST WHO IS NOT ACCEPTING PALE MOON" be a more suitable title for this topic?

[New Tobin Paradigm]

How about we leave crusades out of the forum. There is no need to create a blacklist/harassment list. You want to help when you see this junk going on just go and bring it up with them.

[Antonius32]

How about we leave crusades out of the forum. There is no need to create a blacklist/harassment list. You want to help when you see this junk going on just go and bring it up with them.

You're absolutely right. Of course the only solution is to approach the developers of websites that prove problematic in a positive, constructive way.

[TWB404]

How about we leave crusades out of the forum. There is no need to create a blacklist/harassment list. You want to help when you see this junk going on just go and bring it up with them.

If you read my post you will see that I first ask for people to write the sites who are blocking Pale Moon. I did get a site to do just that from using a nice email. That is not going to work with those like Google and the other major players on the net. Moonchild has already experienced that, hence the reason he had to put a option in to trick the site into thinking it is FF. The one thing I can say is that the more people who write the better chance you have of getting them to change their mind and that is why we should have a list of them. Also, if you had read really read my post you would have seen it was the VERY LAST paragraph I bring up the fact that we can take a legal route too. Since you think I am trying to create backlist/harassment list I will bow out and let you and the others play nice. You can learn just how far that will get you. Just remember just how far that got Netscape.

Not sure how old you are (you look very young) but I am not so sure you know just how cut throat the web really is. If you look back thru the history of browser, Netscape took the same approach until it was to late and M$ had buried them. Now they are just history. If you leave this up to gentle nudging Google and the other big boys are going bury Pale Moon like M$ buried Netscape. Pale Moon will die a slow death like the other upstart that dared to challenge the big players with polite letters. I will continue to use Pale Moon until it ends up like Mozilla, taking it orders from Google or one of the other who control the web.

[New Tobin Paradigm]

How about we leave crusades out of the forum. There is no need to create a blacklist/harassment list. You want to help when you see this junk going on just go and bring it up with them.

If you read my post you will see that I first ask for people to write the sites who are blocking Pale Moon. I did get a site to do just that from using a nice email. That is not going to work with those like Google and the other major players on the net. Moonchild has already experienced that, hence the reason he had to put a option in to trick the site into thinking it is FF. The one thing I can say is that the more people who write the better chance you have of getting them to change their mind and that is why we should have a list of them. Also, if you had read really read my post you would have seen it was the VERY LAST paragraph I bring up the fact that we can take a legal route too. Since you think I am trying to create backlist/harassment list I will bow out and let you and the others play nice. You can learn just how far that will get you. Just remember just how far that got Netscape.

Not sure how old you are (you look very young) but I am not so sure you know just how cut throat the web really is. If you look back thru the history of browser, Netscape took the same approach until it was to late and M$ had buried them. Now they are just history. If you leave this up to gentle nudging Google and the other big boys are going bury Pale Moon like M$ buried Netscape. Pale Moon will die a slow death like the other upstart that dared to challenge the big players with polite letters. I will continue to use Pale Moon until it ends up like Mozilla, taking it orders from Google or one of the other who control the web.

i actually did read your entire post actually. Unlike many people, especially in the past few weeks, I read every post on this forum. And Yes I do realize that was not your core intention to suggest what i advised against. However, as many do only skim through posts or latch onto specific keywords I wanted to make sure they don't make that kind of assumption.

As for my age. I am 29. Which of course age has very little to do with what one knows. I am fully cognoscente of how the web is. I was there before it became a thing. I remember pulling Mosaic Netscape off a warez dial up bbs and making sure I had winsock installed so could get onto the graphical internet on Windows 3.1. What you need to realize is that you have to be diplomatic when dealing with these companies. You can't just go "mai palesmoons dont werk with ur site they said its ur fault!!!!!!!!!1111oneone"

I am sorry you got the wrong idea from my original response I just wanted to help to make sure this thread did not go down that road and people didn't do that.

[Moonchild]

If you leave this up to gentle nudging Google and the other big boys are going bury Pale Moon like M$ buried Netscape. Pale Moon will die a slow death like the other upstart that dared to challenge the big players with polite letters. I will continue to use Pale Moon until it ends up like Mozilla, taking it orders from Google or one of the other who control the web.

I think you have a particularly grim view of the 'net. Sure, the big boys are not afraid to strong-arm people. I certainly know that much.

But at the same time, I promise you that Pale Moon will not end up being anyone's lap dog. Call me defiant if you want. I'd rather bury the browser myself if it would ever come to that, than letting some big company slowly choke it to an undignified end. And if anyone else would ever be handed the torch for Pale Moon, it would be on the same premise.

[TWB404]

How about we leave crusades out of the forum. There is no need to create a blacklist/harassment list. You want to help when you see this junk going on just go and bring it up with them.

If you read my post you will see that I first ask for people to write the sites who are blocking Pale Moon. I did get a site to do just that from using a nice email. That is not going to work with those like Google and the other major players on the net. Moonchild has already experienced that, hence the reason he had to put a option in to trick the site into thinking it is FF. The one thing I can say is that the more people who write the better chance you have of getting them to change their mind and that is why we should have a list of them. Also, if you had read really read my post you would have seen it was the VERY LAST paragraph I bring up the fact that we can take a legal route too. Since you think I am trying to create backlist/harassment list I will bow out and let you and the others play nice. You can learn just how far that will get you. Just remember just how far that got Netscape.

Not sure how old you are (you look very young) but I am not so sure you know just how cut throat the web really is. If you look back thru the history of browser, Netscape took the same approach until it was to late and M$ had buried them. Now they are just history. If you leave this up to gentle nudging Google and the other big boys are going bury Pale Moon like M$ buried Netscape. Pale Moon will die a slow death like the other upstart that dared to challenge the big players with polite letters. I will continue to use Pale Moon until it ends up like Mozilla, taking it orders from Google or one of the other who control the web.

i actually did read your entire post actually. Unlike many people, especially in the past few weeks, I read every post on this forum. And Yes I do realize that was not your core intention to suggest what i advised against. However, as many do only skim through posts or latch onto specific keywords I wanted to make sure they don't make that kind of assumption.

As for my age. I am 29. Which of course age has very little to do with what one knows. I am fully cognoscente of how the web is. I was there before it became a thing. I remember pulling Mosaic Netscape off a warez dial up bbs and making sure I had winsock installed so could get onto the graphical internet on Windows 3.1. What you need to realize is that you have to be diplomatic when dealing with these companies. You can't just go "mai palesmoons dont werk with ur site they said its ur fault!!!!!!!!!1111oneone"

I am sorry you got the wrong idea from my original response I just wanted to help to make sure this thread did not go down that road and people didn't do that.

Well, I'm glad your 29, I got 30 years on you. I can remember the days with DOS 2.0 and all we had to do just to get a program to run. How hard it was to use bulletin boards when they became available. You were lucky that you had it easy with Win 3.1. You should have been back in the days when we were assembling kits and entering code with a hexadecimal key pads. I do not think any where in my post I said write them and say "mai palesmoons dont werk with ur site they said its ur fault!!!!!!!!!1111oneone" I do wish you luck and hope one day you learn where all this came from ( I was there ), where it is now and where it will end up. I did not get the wrong idea from your post, the words backlist/harassment list are HARSH words that my generation takes very seriously.

@ Moonchild

You are right I do have a do have a particularly grim view of the 'net. I have been around long enough to know how these games play out and have earned that grim view. If you think just a couple of nice and polite emails are going to get you accepted you're in for a long road with a lot of heartaches. I do hope what you say is true and you will never be bullied or told what to do. I do apologize for taking up the cause and trying to get people to email sites that rejected Pale Moon. Anyhow, I sent out emails to my friends telling them that the idea of a large group of people taking up the cause of Pale Moon has been frowned on and to ignore my request to send out emails asking them to accept it as a legit browser.

[Supernova]

What I understood in TWB message about legal action was about very big players like google, which are fully aware of the situation and do use that technic to hinder potential concurrence/the emergence of an alternative which don't follow the path the said very big players want.
However Google should have been dismantled a long time ago if law was applied, so I'm skeptical it will lead anywhere. Plus we may expect some kind of backfire.

[New Tobin Paradigm]

All I said was that we should leave the crusade out of the forum. Not that a crusade shouldn't happen. I also said that age has no barring on what you know or are capable of doing. I also never said you suggested "mai palesmoons dont werk with ur site they said its ur fault!!!!!!!!!1111oneone". I merely said that it COULD be an outcome that should be avoided especially based on some of the recent support requests we have had here.

As for BBSes I was Co-SysOP on a number of them when I was very young. As well as ran my town BBS with my father. (I did most of the work, of course). Also, I am sorry you found my words harsh and blunt and to the point. But I do not typically hide my core intent. While I do try and soften them to a point I won't purely obscure them behind layer after layer of platitudes and political correctness to the point where the meaning is lost and open to interpretation by everyone just to protect your sensibilities.

You can absolutely take my words at face value and nothing else. No added or implied context or connotation.

[Moonchild]

I think the main problem is that compiling a list of websites on a public board like this is a completely different strategy than urging people to write website owners.
I urge people to write website owners, as well. Very much so. The more people write, in their own words, the more likely it will become a point on the agenda in meetings and the bigger the chance that something can be done about it.

Compiling a list though is a much more negative approach, and a political faux pas. Because it will be seen as a blacklist and it will be assumed that it'll be a resource for some kind of project-endorsed vendetta or attack against certain sites, companies or individuals. I definitely do not agree with that on this forum. I think this is what Tobin was trying to get across as well.

Gentle nudges from random people to a support department will likely do very little unless they are significant in number, but there is a certain level of professionalism that is required in what you write for large companies to take your nudge seriously - including the support rep you are talking to. You need to know the channels, the right contacts, and the proper way of addressing things to get people's attention in large companies. A few well-written letters to the right people may accomplish more than an on-line petition gaining 15,000 signatures.
To get the right contacting information or have things passed on to the right people, you need to take your time, be friendly and courteous, but persistent at the same time when contact customer support. They are just doing their job and their hands are usually tied to strict procedures. People will bend the rules a little if you treat them well, though. I know, I've been a customer support rep myself - I've seen the other side of the line.

Off-topic:
As an aside, I don't think that there's much difference in being 30 or 60 when it comes to the internet and computers, since they are, all things considered, not that old. What does make a difference is how much exposure you've had to different parts of the 'net and IT companies, and in what way, that has you form an opinion and has educated you in "how things are done". I know for a fact that Tobin has seen the corporate side of things close to home here, being involved personally with the SeaMonkey Council. I wouldn't discount his input so easily just because you've got more years under your belt.

[TWB404]

LMOMBO Well this sure is going to be interesting. It is my bet from experience that little option you included is going to be there a long time and FF will still get the credit when ever Pale Moon uses a site. Which by the way is why the big boys will never let you play in there sand box fairly.

@ Tobin

When you use the words that you chose to use you have no idea what they really mean. I think it shows just how bad the education system has failed your generation and why you can not truly appreciate what you were implying. But then again you won't purely obscure them behind layer after layer of platitudes and political correctness to the point where the meaning is lost and open to interpretation by everyone just to protect your sensibilities. Fancy writing. I am proud of you that the ran BBS. That is impressive but a simple thing back in the day. You should have been around when we had to toggle things in one byte at a time just to get a teletype up and running just to load a program.

@ Moonchild

You are right, ones experience over another means nothing in life. When I was in my twenties I use to think the same thing. Sadly tho I grew older and more experience. I am sure Tobin experience in the corporate world is vast at 29 years old. The only thing I ask is that in 3 or 5 years I am not telling my grand kids how Pale Moon like so many others crumble under the corporate weight of the big boys because of the extensive experience the youthful developers. Again, I do apologize for even trying to help and hope that this experience will someday help others to understand just what the real world is like.

[TWB404]

I am going to add this a separate post to make sure it makes sense.

The problem we have in our small debate here is that we are looking at this from different points pf view. The two of you are looking at this as a IT type problem and all you have to do is contact the right people. I am looking at this thru the corporate point of view. Profit and loss. Will someone make a buck or not. Think back to how M$ wrote Win 3.1 to crash if Doc Dos was installed or how Win 95 was written not to let Word Perfect run correctly when install. Think how M$ crushed Netscape. Think about how Goggle paid web site to only work with Chrome. Think about the $600 to $700 million dollars Goggle has paid Mozilla to do what ever they are doing over there. Think about corporate profits and how you could affect them and maybe you will think about what your future holds for you. Mozilla is on a downward spiral and has gone from 33% market share to 14% and still dropping but they stay on the path because they can make a buck off Goggle doing that. You survive on donations from your user and have no idea just how nasty all this can become if you start showing up in the % of market share.

[Moonchild]

I know exactly how nasty it can become; please don't think you know what I know and have seen. I've moved in the corporate IT world for 20 years or so, and I've had my share of really, really underhanded attempts at undermining my life and finances. Including trying to get criminal charges against me for something I was not guilty of. I've seen the ugly face of hard business.

But hey, guess what? Pale Moon is a FOSS product. And if corporate big-shots think they can convince me to have Pale Moon absorbed by them, they have another thing coming.
What are they going to do? Threaten me? With what? Make me "an offer I can't refuse"? Just makes me think of the Godfather. Somehow push me out of the market? Its a free and open source product, in a free market, released in the hope it's useful and without guarantees. There is no commercial edge to what is done for Pale Moon beyond having it pay for itself. I don't make $300M/year like the Mozilla Corporation, and I don't need it to develop Pale Moon. I don't have investors, I don't have obligations apart from to my users (and keeping food on the table for my family). Smart man who finds a legitimate way of leveraging that against me.

If I'd somehow be put under anti-competition pressure in the future, I think the media and my friends at syndicated IT news sites would love to hear about it. They'd better think twice about that kind of approach. If Mozilla didn't want this kind of competition, they should not have made it Open Source -- but the flip-side of that is, of course, that they would also not have been where they are now, without all the volunteer efforts from the community.

It actually saddens me to see that a lot of good work has been thrown out in Firefox's recent releases. And for what? An unstable, degrading browser with a less-than-desirable GUI that is, as a result, rapidly losing market share.

(By the way: if the people gathering net statistics want to be accurate, they would measure Pale Moon separately as an alternative. Pale Moon will, also in compatibility mode, always have its own identifier in the UA string as PaleMoon/nn.nn, indicating it's not Mozilla Firefox )

[New Tobin Paradigm]

@ Tobin

When you use the words that you chose to use you have no idea what they really mean. I think it shows just how bad the education system has failed your generation and why you can not truly appreciate what you were implying. [...] Fancy writing.

So would you care to exactly elaborate your problem with my word choices? Also, how can you possibly substantiate the claim that I do not know the meaning of what I said.

I am proud of you that the ran BBS. That is impressive but a simple thing back in the day. You should have been around when we had to toggle things in one byte at a time just to get a teletype up and running just to load a program.

I didn't say it was all that complicated but I was like 6 when I started doing BBS stuff.. I also started using computers when I was 3 (and no not just to play games. I have never been a big into games.)

I am sure Tobin experience in the corporate world is vast at 29 years old. The only thing I ask is that in 3 or 5 years I am not telling my grand kids how Pale Moon like so many others crumble under the corporate weight of the big boys because of the extensive experience the youthful developers. Again, I do apologize for even trying to help and hope that this experience will someday help others to understand just what the real world is like.

Again, I, nor Moonchild, claimed my experience was in any way vast. However, in this specific case, I have seen the corporate motivated implications and decisions play out in the Mozilla world over the past 5 years when I was apart of the SeaMonkey Community and how they affected what the members of the SeaMonkey Council had to do in producing their product. I took the time to inquire about the project, how it was formed, the split between mozilla-central and comm-central and the continued roadblocks Mozilla has put up against not only SeaMonkey but the other comm hosted projects. From corp-politics to outright open hostility.

I am also very familiar with how MozCo manages Firefox and other "golden children" as projects and products. So while there may be a lack of direct experience in many aspects, I do know Mozilla, additionally I know Mozilla from the outside and in.

So, where does this leave us? What exactly is the issue here and what is the issue you have with me specifically. Also, why when you came upon the slightest perceived resistance did you suddenly shut down your efforts and then call me out? What was your end game, your goal? I await your responce so that this can be settled and not continue to be problem in the future.

Peace,

Matt A. Tobin

Add-ons Site Administrator
Contributing Developer
Beta Tester
3rd Party Build Contributor
The Pale Moon Project

[TWB404]

How about we leave crusades out of the forum. There is no need to create a blacklist/harassment list. You want to help when you see this junk going on just go and bring it up with them.

To start off with the word crusade and then in the next sentence you use blacklist/harassment list. This implies that I am a radical who is looking to do great harm to those who disagree. If you have never have been on a blacklist ( I hope you never are ) then you will never know how bad that word really is. I have!!! The worse part is after you use those words you contradict yourself and say well if you see it bring it up with them. All I wanted was a list so we could all do it.

I didn't say it was all that complicated but I was like 6 when I started doing BBS stuff.. I also started using computers when I was 3 (and no not just to play games. I have never been a big into games.)

Now this part of my reply is going to brutal and to the point and might just get me booted from the forum but it is something you might need to hear. This is the part where I cover what you consider an issue with you. The above statement says it all. Back in the day you WERE the smartest kid on the block. KING GEEK as we use to say. That in itself is not a bad thing, I use to be the KING NERD on mine. There was nothing I wouldn't take apart. By the time I was eight I was taking just about anything I could apart. By the time I was thirteen I could take it apart and put it back together. By the time I was eighteen I could take it apart and put it back together and it wouldn't have any new problems then it had before and sometimes I even fixed it. When I entered the real world I was very experience in repairing things and I didn't care what it was. I use to tell people I didn't need to know how it works, I just need to know what isn't working. At 25 I was the top nerd at a bleeding edge telecommunication manufacturing plant and got called on to fix things that even had the engineers confused. This is the time in my life that I found out just what the word blacklist meant. I refused to protect the foul ups or file false reports on what it took to get things up and running. I refused to steal parts from one job to keep another job up and running, to make sure one man look good and another look bad. I tell you all this because in a way it applies to you. People were probably telling you just how smart you were, maybe even used the word genius one to many times. I don't know, I wasn't not there but I do know that I heard those words and they tend to give us a ego that does not work well in the real world. I know, I been there, done that, and not one person gave me a t shirt for it. I have known a lot people like me who thru time realize we are not the top dogs, just people who are good at what we do. We also learned that harsh words do not help anyone and trying to use harsh words to stay the top dog will never help anyone or any cause.

Your statement above, your reply to my post, (which I see as an attack on my character) and some of your other post indicates to me that you have heard the word smart,genius too many times. You might be a very excellent coder, you might even be a genius when it comes to coding, but you need more then just smarts in one area to succeed in this world. I use to work for a guy who had two PHD. He was the absolute stupidest person I ever worked for. For some reason he decided to teach himself how to write programs and declared himself a coder. After three months I realized that no matter what I did he was going to come along, remind everyone he had two PHD, how much smarter he was then the rest of us and blow the project up. I left and he ended up going going out of business. Being smartest kid on the block isn't a guarantee that you will succeed. If you continue with the harsh words you're are always going to be pushing those who want to help away from you.

Again, I, nor Moonchild, claimed my experience was in any way vast. However, in this specific case, I have seen the corporate motivated implications and decisions play out in the Mozilla world over the past 5 years when I was apart of the SeaMonkey Community and how they affected what the members of the SeaMonkey Council had to do in producing their product. I took the time to inquire about the project, how it was formed, the split between mozilla-central and comm-central and the continued roadblocks Mozilla has put up against not only SeaMonkey but the other comm hosted projects. From corp-politics to outright open hostility.

I am also very familiar with how MozCo manages Firefox and other "golden children" as projects and products. So while there may be a lack of direct experience in many aspects, I do know Mozilla, additionally I know Mozilla from the outside and in.

So, where does this leave us? What exactly is the issue here and what is the issue you have with me specifically. Also, why when you came upon the slightest perceived resistance did you suddenly shut down your efforts and then call me out? What was your end game, your goal? I await your responce so that this can be settled and not continue to be problem in the future.

I took a jab at your vast experience because you state it in the above comment you have dealt with Mozilla. You state that in this specific case you have seen how things work or at least imply it. I hate to inform you but we are not talking about Mozilla when it comes to the big boys who control the web and what they forced Moonchild to do by adding the extra little option to pretend to be FF. Mozilla is just a puppet to Goggle and will only be a bit player as long as Goggle lets them. I can guarantee you that you have not seen how things truly works. You have been given a little window into the corporate world but have yet to see just how bad things can get when they feel threatened. Read thru Moonchild last post and pick up the part where they tried to get criminal charges on him. Again, I have seen it, been there, done that and still waiting on my t shirt.

In the last part you ask why I called you out and what was my end game.

Why did I call you. Maybe just maybe someone has to do that to let you know being the smart kid does not get you where you need to go. That you are not the only smart person online. It helps to be smart in all areas not just one. You slapped me down and used a group of words that implied that I was a radical starting a crusade. who wanted to generate a blacklist. You never even asked if I had a end game or how this would work.

My end game was simple. I had a lady friend who is very good at writing letters of complaints drafting a letter of complaint for us. It was not going to use the words "mai palesmoons dont werk with ur site they said its ur fault!!!!!!!!!1111oneone". When I emailed her and told her that I was being accused of starting a crusade, that I was generating a blacklist she actually called to find out just who you were. I linked her the post and she was in total shock that someone who didn't know me would use those words. Then again she is from my generation and has learned the value of soft words. I will concede that you have no idea what those words mean or have you ever been on a blacklist. The damage that can be done to a person who is on one. I did have a plan. Maybe I could have been a little smarter and posted more of it beside just asking people to post the names of the sites refusing to except Pale Moon. Maybe you could have been a little smarter and less aggressive and ask what it was.

Where does this leave us. Well, I have popped the pop corn got the beer in the fridge. My buddies and I are going to sit back and watch this play out. I got a bet on the fact that five years from now that little option that lets Pale Moon pretend to be FF is still going to be there. The big boys are not going to be nice to Pale Moon. You're going to be pushing those who wish to help away. Moon Child and you are going to be playing patty cake and being nice to those who wish to cripple Pale Moon.

[Mercury]

So would you care to exactly elaborate your problem with my word choices? Also, how can you possibly substantiate the claim that I do not know the meaning of what I said.

At the risk of being a dick and butting in

cognoscente

You mean "cognizant"; aware or knowledgeable. "Cognoscente" is a real word, but it means something else.

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Mercury, you are correct. and nah you are fine it actually made me smile that out of all the stuff said by and to this person your only issue was that i selected the wrong word from the spell check Good times!

Also @TWB404

Woah, really? Tell me more.

[TWB404]

I would Tobin, but it would just fall on deaf ears. Beside, I am to busy eating pop corn, starting crusades and generating blacklist.