Moderator note: Split off from the FAQ "Why do some extensions no longer work in v25?" since it's not directly related.
Moonchild,
I hazard to guess, but I would imagine that a large percentage of the switchers TO Pale Moon over the years, even before the tragic events of the Australis Event, did so, so they could get the frozen Firefox environment with the security improvements behind the scenes from a single source of responsibility, single programmer. Whew, that came out longer winded than I intended.
In fact, I made the switch to try and get a x64 version of Firefox and just happened to be happily coccooned in Pale Moon for months when Australis happened. It was almost proof of concept. A make-work project for a programming team that had to legitimize their continued employment, users be damned. And the after-the-fact claims of a hamburger menu interface from the first days of Firefox rang awfully hollow. It was almost an advertisement for Pale Moon.
Unfortunately, you did too good of a job with Pale Moon. The idea behind many switchers, relating to the Australis Event, was that of a safe haven, a place where no changes would be made that they could see and the security apparatus that would prevent any badness from encroaching on that idyll. Success often can be it's own reward. Or HAS to be it's own reward.
When you made the decision to avoid the blind alley continuing to satisfy the main goal of Firefox switchers of a more recent vintage, you did so with the knowledge that a lot of users would be annoyed, seeing parallels with Opera and with other software products over the years. It's tough to come to rely on software to perform just so, and for that to cease to be the case without a LOT of warning. Google Reader is the yin to Opera's yang.
Here's where I stand on the issue of v25. I wish you had spent extra time preparing notices of the imprending change, rather than proceeding with the actual update. Having an "It's coming!!" campaign would have left few users in a righteous state of indignation. Maybe a bi-weekly warning about v25 being new, better, and possibly plagued by newness issues for the six weeks prior to v25, might have been worth the time spent overall, diverted away from programming. Yes, SOME users would still have clicked through the dialogs unread. But the pedestal they would have complained from would have subsequently been sawed off. And for the truly non-technical among us, the warnings would have cause for further research rather than complacency. Or not. But again, the outrage would have been subdued after the fact.
Touting a new PaleMoon AMO site and plan for static workarounds should have been trumpeted as the new best of all worlds. It's amazing how well received good news is, regardless of whether it's actually good news. If it's packaged properly. Putting lipstick on the pig works a credibly high percentage of the time.
That's not to say that v25 is the pig. In breaking with it's ancestor, Pale Moon can get away from add-ons that are increasingly Australis-focused/required. At some point the mass of specifically Australis-oriented add-ons and the rewrites/updates of add-ons to continue to work with Australis and future versions of Firefox, would have been as harmful to Pale Moon as the uproar over the currently broken ones are with v25. You chose to take your medicine now. And any person has to respect that decision, knowing it was coming at some point.
Having said ALL of that, I have to admit that I'm staying with v24 right now. Some of the problem add-ons on your list are show-stoppers for me now. I am checking in to see if their status changes on a weekly basis. I'm hopeful that I will be able to hop aboard the upgrade train again in short order. I plan to remain a Pale Moon customer in some form or another for the forseeable future. And I want you to know that I DO support what you are doing.
I still wish the abrupt change hadn't come as such an unexpected sea change as it was. I wasn't happy initially, but I did my research and discovered what was going on before typing something intemperate. I'm still hoping that the JetPack corrections will chip away at the issues that make v25 a non-starter for me just at the moment.
But I also caution you not to rely too much on rational behaviour from your users. We love our software when it works as well as we have become accustomed to Pale Moon working for us. In in the quick-twitch Twitter-verse with little to stop instantaneous response, there's not much downside to exploding with outrage. So, please understand your userbase. It consists of forum folks who had an inkling, informed techies who knew something like v25 was inevitable, placid people who roll with the punches and the rest of us. Be patient with us and I promise the trust will return.
You made the decision to take the long view. In all things.
Thanks for your work. GM
Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
Forum rules
Please keep everything here strictly on-topic.
This board is meant for Pale Moon source code development related subjects only like code snippets, patches, specific bugs, git, the repositories, etc.
This is not for tech support! Please do not post tech support questions in the "Development" board!
Please make sure not to use this board for support questions. Please post issues with specific websites, extensions, etc. in the relevant boards for those topics.
Please keep things on-topic as this forum will be used for reference for Pale Moon development. Expect topics that aren't relevant as such to be moved or deleted.
Please keep everything here strictly on-topic.
This board is meant for Pale Moon source code development related subjects only like code snippets, patches, specific bugs, git, the repositories, etc.
This is not for tech support! Please do not post tech support questions in the "Development" board!
Please make sure not to use this board for support questions. Please post issues with specific websites, extensions, etc. in the relevant boards for those topics.
Please keep things on-topic as this forum will be used for reference for Pale Moon development. Expect topics that aren't relevant as such to be moved or deleted.
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
Thanks for your feedback.
For the people who have switched for the reasons you indicate, there seems to have been quite the misunderstanding about Pale Moon's goals and mission.
I'll try to explain, as concise as possible, where the crux lies:
It has never been Pale Moon's goal to provide something static.
If users switched to Pale Moon thinking this, then they have been mistaken.
There are some very clear indicators about Pale Moon's progressing nature in the past and present, like:
The "safe haven" that you mention is a temporary reprieve at most. It has no future, neither for us nor for the users.
Sure, it would have been easy to just do minimal work needed to keep a branch updated and just sit back otherwise and not bother. That would be an easy, lazy way to have a "product", but it's simply not a sustainable thing. Maybe people are looking for a one-use item, but I try to make it a sustainable, long-lasting product.
As you say yourself, it's a blind alley. I see it, you see it, and anyone who has ever taken a step back and looked at the bigger picture has seen it.
Why would I want to walk, willingly, down a blind alley, to squeeze maybe 2 more years out of the browser and then having to fold?
Extensibility is important - but not that important
What matters most to Pale Moon is its core and striking a logical balance in it. Extensibility is an important part of that, but is not the end-all of what Pale Moon is about. Pale Moon is not just an "extension framework" and its core does not exist solely to run extensions. In fact, running the browser without any extensions is perfectly possible and viable, and will not give you in any way a poor, incomplete or lacking browsing experience. Many users use Pale Moon that way because of how it, as a product, tries to maintain the balance between the progressive and the conservative, with more (or at the very least the same) user choice as time goes on, instead of less.
Pale Moon has not become any less of a browser because of the lack of support from the add-on developers' side. And I hate to sound like a broken record but that is where the crux for incompatibility lies. No two ways about it. After this change, Pale Moon can become more than it ever would before this change.
If extensions are no longer updated by their original developer for whichever reason (in many cases "developer fatigue" caused by the rabid release schedule of Mozilla Firefox) and are in all respects abandoned, then it would be logical that a new product is not supported (and in fact it would be time for someone else to pick up development which, thanks to the Open Source license of almost all of them is completely painless and without any hurdles) - a good portion of the same extensions would also not run properly in current versions of Mozilla Firefox, but somehow that is considered OK (I guess because people switched to Pale Moon before or at the moment Australis broke them...?).
This abandonment cannot be considered Pale Moon's fault; that's a topsy-turvy view.
The resistance
This brings me to a point why there is apparently such resistance: People are creatures of habit.
This is drawn into the extreme here, because people expect everything to stay the same, yet change at the same time. "Le Roi est Mort, Vive le Roi" (The King is Dead; Long Live the King)
In the current age, an added factor is that people are incredibly impatient.
It has been less than a week since the release, and look what's been done so far already to relieve the anxiety of not having 100% of the collection of add-ons (to satisfy these habits). This work will continue, because it is needed to create a new base for a (from an extension point of view) new product.
Unfortunately, this resistance is also instrumental in slowing things down, because we have to take a lot of time to address people's immediate concerns, explain things, and provide support. Less resistance means we can get more done in less time, but that requires people to also think about more than just them and their personal needs, another thing apparently difficult in this current age of extreme individualism and personal bubbles.
No amount of advance notice would have avoided this
Even repeating the advance notice to the point of irritation would not have helped.
I've made a number of announcements to indicate the big changes coming, and given them exposure in the known channels.
But this didn't help much, because, bluntly put: people don't read.
They get into their comfort zone of a certain workflow and stop paying attention to developments. Even I am guilty of the same in some things, and get blindsided now and then. Does that mean that the development that crept up on me was bad? Absolutely not.
When things suddenly change, people get upset. When people get upset they read even less, even if that would be the exact thing to do to calm their nerves and understand what is going on, and rather switch to "output" mode to spout complaints. That's just psychology, though, and there's really nothing I can do to work around it.
This is complicated by the fact that users got lulled into the notion that major releases are in fact insignificant (because of the big players just arbitrarily bumping versions based on calendar and not on actual development, likely to have a steady stream of continued PR through syndicated news articles of IT sources being compelled to write about "major versions"). I could have renamed the product to signify the new milestone reached, but that would be throwing away 5 years of slow, organic name building. I could have radically changed the version number, but that would be very confusing in the least. So I went for 25.0 after a full year of 24.x, hoping that it would be clear that this was an important change (despite the relatively high base number).
I guess it turned out to be an essay anyway, sorry about the long read. I still wanted to say more but I really do need a break.
(and I promised a certain someone I would take a day off after a week of long days and short nights without a breather)
For the people who have switched for the reasons you indicate, there seems to have been quite the misunderstanding about Pale Moon's goals and mission.
I'll try to explain, as concise as possible, where the crux lies:
It has never been Pale Moon's goal to provide something static.
If users switched to Pale Moon thinking this, then they have been mistaken.
There are some very clear indicators about Pale Moon's progressing nature in the past and present, like:
- Not aiming to provide maximum compatibility with old hardware
- Not basing on a static product like SeaMonkey
- Following Firefox code and putting in the work to keep adding more modern back-end features
- Porting over new features that in some cases were implemented when they were still bleeding edge
The "safe haven" that you mention is a temporary reprieve at most. It has no future, neither for us nor for the users.
Sure, it would have been easy to just do minimal work needed to keep a branch updated and just sit back otherwise and not bother. That would be an easy, lazy way to have a "product", but it's simply not a sustainable thing. Maybe people are looking for a one-use item, but I try to make it a sustainable, long-lasting product.
As you say yourself, it's a blind alley. I see it, you see it, and anyone who has ever taken a step back and looked at the bigger picture has seen it.
Why would I want to walk, willingly, down a blind alley, to squeeze maybe 2 more years out of the browser and then having to fold?
Extensibility is important - but not that important
What matters most to Pale Moon is its core and striking a logical balance in it. Extensibility is an important part of that, but is not the end-all of what Pale Moon is about. Pale Moon is not just an "extension framework" and its core does not exist solely to run extensions. In fact, running the browser without any extensions is perfectly possible and viable, and will not give you in any way a poor, incomplete or lacking browsing experience. Many users use Pale Moon that way because of how it, as a product, tries to maintain the balance between the progressive and the conservative, with more (or at the very least the same) user choice as time goes on, instead of less.
Pale Moon has not become any less of a browser because of the lack of support from the add-on developers' side. And I hate to sound like a broken record but that is where the crux for incompatibility lies. No two ways about it. After this change, Pale Moon can become more than it ever would before this change.
If extensions are no longer updated by their original developer for whichever reason (in many cases "developer fatigue" caused by the rabid release schedule of Mozilla Firefox) and are in all respects abandoned, then it would be logical that a new product is not supported (and in fact it would be time for someone else to pick up development which, thanks to the Open Source license of almost all of them is completely painless and without any hurdles) - a good portion of the same extensions would also not run properly in current versions of Mozilla Firefox, but somehow that is considered OK (I guess because people switched to Pale Moon before or at the moment Australis broke them...?).
This abandonment cannot be considered Pale Moon's fault; that's a topsy-turvy view.
The resistance
This brings me to a point why there is apparently such resistance: People are creatures of habit.
This is drawn into the extreme here, because people expect everything to stay the same, yet change at the same time. "Le Roi est Mort, Vive le Roi" (The King is Dead; Long Live the King)
In the current age, an added factor is that people are incredibly impatient.
It has been less than a week since the release, and look what's been done so far already to relieve the anxiety of not having 100% of the collection of add-ons (to satisfy these habits). This work will continue, because it is needed to create a new base for a (from an extension point of view) new product.
Unfortunately, this resistance is also instrumental in slowing things down, because we have to take a lot of time to address people's immediate concerns, explain things, and provide support. Less resistance means we can get more done in less time, but that requires people to also think about more than just them and their personal needs, another thing apparently difficult in this current age of extreme individualism and personal bubbles.
No amount of advance notice would have avoided this
Even repeating the advance notice to the point of irritation would not have helped.
I've made a number of announcements to indicate the big changes coming, and given them exposure in the known channels.
But this didn't help much, because, bluntly put: people don't read.
They get into their comfort zone of a certain workflow and stop paying attention to developments. Even I am guilty of the same in some things, and get blindsided now and then. Does that mean that the development that crept up on me was bad? Absolutely not.
When things suddenly change, people get upset. When people get upset they read even less, even if that would be the exact thing to do to calm their nerves and understand what is going on, and rather switch to "output" mode to spout complaints. That's just psychology, though, and there's really nothing I can do to work around it.
This is complicated by the fact that users got lulled into the notion that major releases are in fact insignificant (because of the big players just arbitrarily bumping versions based on calendar and not on actual development, likely to have a steady stream of continued PR through syndicated news articles of IT sources being compelled to write about "major versions"). I could have renamed the product to signify the new milestone reached, but that would be throwing away 5 years of slow, organic name building. I could have radically changed the version number, but that would be very confusing in the least. So I went for 25.0 after a full year of 24.x, hoping that it would be clear that this was an important change (despite the relatively high base number).
I guess it turned out to be an essay anyway, sorry about the long read. I still wanted to say more but I really do need a break.
(and I promised a certain someone I would take a day off after a week of long days and short nights without a breather)
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
-
Night Wing
- Knows the dark side
- Posts: 5172
- Joined: 2011-10-03, 10:19
- Location: Piney Woods of Southeast Texas, USA
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
Two excellent messages with two different viewpoints explained in detail. I enjoyed reading this topic.
Linux Mint 21.3 (Virginia) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
MX Linux 23.2 (Libretto) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
Linux Debian 12.5 (Bookworm) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
MX Linux 23.2 (Libretto) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
Linux Debian 12.5 (Bookworm) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
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TWB404
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
I have followed this release with great interest considering the great amount of work put into splitting off from FF. I had some hiccups with 25 but nothing that was a deal breaker or that would cause me to pee my pants causing me to rant about how bad everything was. Everyone needs to know and understand that Pale Moon is not backed by 300 million Goggle dollars. You got some very dedicated and brave coders here trying to protect our privacy and ability our to customize our browser to how we like it. Not how Goggle wants it to look or behave.
I am not sure how many has taken the time to tell these guys just how good of a job they are doing but I think everyone should stand up and give them a very long standing ovation.
I personally would like to thank Moonchild, Tobin and all the other people who have helped out on this project. I know it has been a big one and I am quite sure they have taken more then a few aspirin getting it this far.
I am not sure how many has taken the time to tell these guys just how good of a job they are doing but I think everyone should stand up and give them a very long standing ovation.
I personally would like to thank Moonchild, Tobin and all the other people who have helped out on this project. I know it has been a big one and I am quite sure they have taken more then a few aspirin getting it this far.
Last edited by TWB404 on 2014-10-19, 18:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Night Wing
- Knows the dark side
- Posts: 5172
- Joined: 2011-10-03, 10:19
- Location: Piney Woods of Southeast Texas, USA
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
You can add me to this list.TWB404 wrote:I personally would like to thank Moonchild, Tobin and all the other people who have helped out on this project. I know it has been a big one and I am quite sure they and taken more then a few aspirin getting it this far.
Linux Mint 21.3 (Virginia) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
MX Linux 23.2 (Libretto) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
Linux Debian 12.5 (Bookworm) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
MX Linux 23.2 (Libretto) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
Linux Debian 12.5 (Bookworm) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
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Sichuan
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
That's nice to know, Night Wing. I have no idea who the developers and their assistants are, other than Moonchild, Matt Tobin and now you.Night Wing wrote:You can add me to this list.TWB404 wrote:I personally would like to thank Moonchild, Tobin and all the other people who have helped out on this project. I know it has been a big one and I am quite sure they and taken more then a few aspirin getting it this far.
C. B.
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
Well, besides myself and the recent addition of Tobin as a developer, there's the beta tester team with people with varying degrees of activity in the project, cyansmoker for Linux and Mac builds and publications (although no real code development), and the moderators on the forum should also not be forgotten 
(I have the feeling I'm forgetting to mention something. don't kill me!)
But, all in all a small group of people.
(I have the feeling I'm forgetting to mention something. don't kill me!)
But, all in all a small group of people.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
-
New Tobin Paradigm
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
Moonchild.. The wonderful users of this community that offers help and support and generally makes people feel welcome!
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Night Wing
- Knows the dark side
- Posts: 5172
- Joined: 2011-10-03, 10:19
- Location: Piney Woods of Southeast Texas, USA
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
I am not a developer or an assistant. Just a non technical person who has been using Pale Moon for a little over 3 years now. I, like you, just wanted to say "Thanks" to all the people who work on Pale Moon.Sichuan wrote:That's nice to know, Night Wing. I have no idea who the developers and their assistants are, other than Moonchild, Matt Tobin and now you.Night Wing wrote:You can add me to this list.TWB404 wrote:I personally would like to thank Moonchild, Tobin and all the other people who have helped out on this project. I know it has been a big one and I am quite sure they and taken more then a few aspirin getting it this far.
Linux Mint 21.3 (Virginia) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
MX Linux 23.2 (Libretto) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
Linux Debian 12.5 (Bookworm) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
MX Linux 23.2 (Libretto) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
Linux Debian 12.5 (Bookworm) Xfce w/ Linux Pale Moon, Linux Waterfox, Linux SeaLion, Linux Firefox
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Sichuan
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
Sorry; my mistake. I had assumed that when you said "You can add me to this list." you meant the list of developers and those who assist them.Night Wing wrote:I am not a developer or an assistant. Just a non technical person who has been using Pale Moon for a little over 3 years now. I, like you, just wanted to say "Thanks" to all the people who work on Pale Moon.Sichuan wrote:That's nice to know, Night Wing. I have no idea who the developers and their assistants are, other than Moonchild, Matt Tobin and now you.Night Wing wrote:You can add me to this list.TWB404 wrote:I personally would like to thank Moonchild, Tobin and all the other people who have helped out on this project. I know it has been a big one and I am quite sure they and taken more then a few aspirin getting it this far.
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
Of course! Silly me, how could I forget all you wonderful folks!Matt A Tobin wrote:Moonchild.. The wonderful users of this community that offers help and support and generally makes people feel welcome!
Thank YOU!
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
-
V_Shaft
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
I just wanted to say that I echo GMugford's (the OP's) words, and like him I'd like to offer my gratitude to PM developers.
When the whole "v25" affair came along, I was in the camp of those unhappy with the release. But since I've been an extremely happy PM user for almost 2 years now and have had nothing but great experiences so far with it, I skimmed the forum for some information before lashing out. I'm glad I did since it clarified the situation for me, but as has been noted - not many will/would do that. Personally, I decided to wait it out until the dust settles, reverting back to the v24.7.2. PM has done me too much good to just jump ship at first sign of trouble.
That said, I'm actually glad PM25 "broke" things down. As creatures of habit, we tend to grow complacent with everything - our software included. While I keep a minimum of plugins and add-ons because I prefer my browser as light-weight as possible, I also like to tinker with them. Which is why, with APB breaking down, I was reminded just how much of a resource hog that add-on was. And again, because of PM and this forum I was introduced to alternatives that actually suited me better: BlueHell or AdGuard to name a few; also Disconnect instead of Ghostery. Just like once upon a time PM introduced me to DuckDuckGo and the whole privacy issue which again changed my browsing behaviors.
I just knew the PM team would not let us down and some sort of compromise will be made, and a few days later came the announcement from Moonchild confirming this.
So, once again, a huge thank you to all the developers on the PM project for the great job you're doing.
When the whole "v25" affair came along, I was in the camp of those unhappy with the release. But since I've been an extremely happy PM user for almost 2 years now and have had nothing but great experiences so far with it, I skimmed the forum for some information before lashing out. I'm glad I did since it clarified the situation for me, but as has been noted - not many will/would do that. Personally, I decided to wait it out until the dust settles, reverting back to the v24.7.2. PM has done me too much good to just jump ship at first sign of trouble.
That said, I'm actually glad PM25 "broke" things down. As creatures of habit, we tend to grow complacent with everything - our software included. While I keep a minimum of plugins and add-ons because I prefer my browser as light-weight as possible, I also like to tinker with them. Which is why, with APB breaking down, I was reminded just how much of a resource hog that add-on was. And again, because of PM and this forum I was introduced to alternatives that actually suited me better: BlueHell or AdGuard to name a few; also Disconnect instead of Ghostery. Just like once upon a time PM introduced me to DuckDuckGo and the whole privacy issue which again changed my browsing behaviors.
I just knew the PM team would not let us down and some sort of compromise will be made, and a few days later came the announcement from Moonchild confirming this.
So, once again, a huge thank you to all the developers on the PM project for the great job you're doing.
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Quantum Reality
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
I think the thing people like about Pale Moon is not "staticness" per se, but the fact that it uses, IMO, the best browser UI developed through people's experiences with the way Windows and browsers have worked over the last decade.
For example, myself? I just had to install the F0F0F0 theme to make the tab contrast a little nicer (as Pale Moon implements Window transparency which can make tabs a little hard to read) and disable the tab bar when only one tab is open, and boom it looks basically like Firefox did since 0.whatever.
Change for the sake of change, as Firefox + Australis is doing, is unnecessary, as is frankly this whole theme of just increasing version numbers rapidly to absurdly large numbers (thank you so very much, Chrome - NOT!), so Pale Moon's focus on slowing down the version number increases and "under the hood" improvements to keep the browser running smoothly and securely are all very welcome things.
For example, myself? I just had to install the F0F0F0 theme to make the tab contrast a little nicer (as Pale Moon implements Window transparency which can make tabs a little hard to read) and disable the tab bar when only one tab is open, and boom it looks basically like Firefox did since 0.whatever.
Change for the sake of change, as Firefox + Australis is doing, is unnecessary, as is frankly this whole theme of just increasing version numbers rapidly to absurdly large numbers (thank you so very much, Chrome - NOT!), so Pale Moon's focus on slowing down the version number increases and "under the hood" improvements to keep the browser running smoothly and securely are all very welcome things.
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Ryrynz
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
VS2013 Community edition released. Still running 2012 aren't you MC?
"Download Visual Studio Community for a free, full-featured IDE with powerful coding productivity features, cross-platform mobile development tools for Windows,
iOS and Android, and access to thousands of extensions. This edition of Visual Studio is available at no cost for non-enterprise application development."
"Download Visual Studio Community for a free, full-featured IDE with powerful coding productivity features, cross-platform mobile development tools for Windows,
iOS and Android, and access to thousands of extensions. This edition of Visual Studio is available at no cost for non-enterprise application development."
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
Changing the compiler in use is not trivial, at all.Ryrynz wrote:VS2013 Community edition released. Still running 2012 aren't you MC?
"Download Visual Studio Community for a free, full-featured IDE with powerful coding productivity features, cross-platform mobile development tools for Windows,
iOS and Android, and access to thousands of extensions. This edition of Visual Studio is available at no cost for non-enterprise application development."
See, e.g. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb531344.aspx -- VS2013 has a number of changes that break compatibility with previous MSVC code. Mozilla code uses a lot of templates, friend classes in namespaces, etc. that are impacted by the changes in VS2013.
In addition, changing a compiler is like touching every single line of code. Just because VS2013 is newer than VS2012 doesn't mean that it will automatically be better for Pale Moon.
I also don't see any significant feature improvements in VS2013 that would warrant this risk. So, I'll stay with VS2012 for a while yet
Besides, going from Pro to Free/Community I'll probably also lose some features in the suite and/or compiler.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
-
New Tobin Paradigm
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
Also of note Mozilla still uses VS2010.
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andres99
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
Thanks for the discussion here. I am just an ordinary user and I will not be giving up Pale Moon. Quite some time ago, I switched to Pale Moon from Opera 10, which was ruined (more or less since Opera 11) and as far as I can see, Pale Moon is not ruined with v25. I will not be giving up Pale Moon because I like it too much.
And I am glad to see that things are gradually normalising, e.g. TabMixPlus, one of my favourite extensions has provided support for Pale Moon 25 in its latest development release (at least temporarily, with no guarantees). Even as I am still using XP (will not argue on that one as this has been a deliberate decision) and Pale Moon's resolution to end support for XP was a definite downer.
However, since I use a number of extensions, I will stay with Pale Moon 24.7.2 for the time being and wait a bit. My fondness of certain extensions can be called a "comfort zone". However, comfort is why I am using Pale Moon. In Opera, I could choose to have my tab bar below the content area natively; in Firefox or Pale Moon I can do so only with TabMixPlus -- but for me the tab bar down there is really much more comfortable especially as regards hand movement. That is so also for the other extensions that I use. Configurability means comfort. I really do not like to retrain myself and my using habits after every smart or less smart development decision. I am a creature of habit and proud of it, as I use browsers for working, not for modding (once I have completed the configuration I like, which is quite specific though).
Thus, perhaps the feeling of loss I am getting from a number of extensions that do not work with v25 and from the end of support for XP would be traded against user interface changes towards bigger native flexibility and further configurability in the user interface of Pale Moon (so that less extensions would be needed -- surely it is possible as I used the old Opera happily without any extensions at all). Time will tell.
Anyhow, I wanted to say thank you to Moonchild and others for Pale Moon, and wish you strength, joy and motivation to go on. I really do not want to switch to Chrome or IE and Firefox is moving in the wrong direction too. I hope to be with you even if I visit this forum rarely.
And I am glad to see that things are gradually normalising, e.g. TabMixPlus, one of my favourite extensions has provided support for Pale Moon 25 in its latest development release (at least temporarily, with no guarantees). Even as I am still using XP (will not argue on that one as this has been a deliberate decision) and Pale Moon's resolution to end support for XP was a definite downer.
However, since I use a number of extensions, I will stay with Pale Moon 24.7.2 for the time being and wait a bit. My fondness of certain extensions can be called a "comfort zone". However, comfort is why I am using Pale Moon. In Opera, I could choose to have my tab bar below the content area natively; in Firefox or Pale Moon I can do so only with TabMixPlus -- but for me the tab bar down there is really much more comfortable especially as regards hand movement. That is so also for the other extensions that I use. Configurability means comfort. I really do not like to retrain myself and my using habits after every smart or less smart development decision. I am a creature of habit and proud of it, as I use browsers for working, not for modding (once I have completed the configuration I like, which is quite specific though).
Thus, perhaps the feeling of loss I am getting from a number of extensions that do not work with v25 and from the end of support for XP would be traded against user interface changes towards bigger native flexibility and further configurability in the user interface of Pale Moon (so that less extensions would be needed -- surely it is possible as I used the old Opera happily without any extensions at all). Time will tell.
Anyhow, I wanted to say thank you to Moonchild and others for Pale Moon, and wish you strength, joy and motivation to go on. I really do not want to switch to Chrome or IE and Firefox is moving in the wrong direction too. I hope to be with you even if I visit this forum rarely.
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JodyThornton
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
I have been happily using Pale Moon x64 since I switched over to Vista Ultimate x64 Edition last February. I was formerly running Windows XP x64 Edition for nearly three years with a 64-bit unofficial SeaMonkey build from a fellow in Japan. Sadly, he stopped compiling, so I went looking for a browser. I wanted to go to Pale Moon, but there was no supported 64-bit build for XP. I stuck with SeaMonkey x86 until February.
I switched over to Pale Moon as soon as I installed Vista (well OK I ran IE 9 for a few weeks while I got everything organized.) I really liked the IE 9 look though so I added the FoxE9 skin to Pale Moon. I also use AdBlockPlus, but I find the recent ABP always slowed the loading of Pale Moon (even on the v24.x build) so I'll have to examine some alternates that were mentioned within this thread.
Otherwise, I had NO PROBLEMS on migrating to v25; at all!
I don't ever expect products to stay static really, but I guess I'm one of those that wished that software retained it's more classic/conservative appearance and just changed its inner workings where necessary. For example. I wished there was a way for Firefox to still look like it's v1x or v2x appearance, yet render HTML5 applets, acquire security updates, and display modern web technologies properly. Hopefully, in doing so, it could remain lightweight.
Or I wished Windows could have native Sata 3 support, USB 3 support, remain secure and stable, yet have the appearance of Windows 2000 and be just as lightweight. Why can that be the case?
SeaMonkey was cited as being static on this thread. And I don't ask this too be argumentative (actually I figure you folks as developers might teach me something... ). But what is the problem with SeaMonkey retaining a relatively conservative or classic appearance, and staying compatible with today's web? How does that shorten it's longevity?
I'm also enjoying this conversation too, and I'd be interested in your thoughts on my last couple points. Cheers, All!
I switched over to Pale Moon as soon as I installed Vista (well OK I ran IE 9 for a few weeks while I got everything organized.) I really liked the IE 9 look though so I added the FoxE9 skin to Pale Moon. I also use AdBlockPlus, but I find the recent ABP always slowed the loading of Pale Moon (even on the v24.x build) so I'll have to examine some alternates that were mentioned within this thread.
Otherwise, I had NO PROBLEMS on migrating to v25; at all!
I don't ever expect products to stay static really, but I guess I'm one of those that wished that software retained it's more classic/conservative appearance and just changed its inner workings where necessary. For example. I wished there was a way for Firefox to still look like it's v1x or v2x appearance, yet render HTML5 applets, acquire security updates, and display modern web technologies properly. Hopefully, in doing so, it could remain lightweight.
Or I wished Windows could have native Sata 3 support, USB 3 support, remain secure and stable, yet have the appearance of Windows 2000 and be just as lightweight. Why can that be the case?
SeaMonkey was cited as being static on this thread. And I don't ask this too be argumentative (actually I figure you folks as developers might teach me something...
). But what is the problem with SeaMonkey retaining a relatively conservative or classic appearance, and staying compatible with today's web? How does that shorten it's longevity?I'm also enjoying this conversation too, and I'd be interested in your thoughts on my last couple points. Cheers, All!
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
Tobin will be able to explain in more detail if you're interested, I'm sure, but the problem with SeaMonkey is not so much the looks (even though the mix and match from like 5 different eras is kind of jarring and certainly not uniform), but rather the total lack of any change required to keep pace with the core they build on.JodyThornton wrote:SeaMonkey was cited as being static on this thread. And I don't ask this too be argumentative (actually I figure you folks as developers might teach me something...
SeaMonkey has not been updated under the hood, and they are rapidly running into problems of not even being able to build at this point because their minimal work on the comm part of the tree has solely been to "make it build" with the next rapid release back-end of Firefox. I believe it was stuck on v29 for a long time, and they only recently managed to get a build on 33, but it looks broken again going forward. So it is very much a static product that gets more struts and crutches to hobble along for as long as it still can.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite
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jangdonggun1234
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- Joined: 2013-06-06, 01:29
Re: Version 25, Pale Moon's decisions and audience
For me, Moonchild decision is right, if we still be Firefox then when web masters update their website, our compatibility maybe not enough to load page correctly, so we must have our own brand to let them now Palemoon is different with Firefox.