Well, I like it, mostly

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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby Night Wing » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:45 am

Moonchild wrote:
opera1215b1748 wrote:Yes, some obscure gimmicry should be done though add-ons, but not the BASIC functionality!

I disagree, since all (not just some) obscure gimmickery should be done through add-ons, and including all more advanced functionality that would be "too much information" for the average user.

The question here is "What is basic functionality?" - It is a balance between satisfying the majority of the users, providing enough extras for power users, but without adding so much "fluff" that it will slow down the browser or load it with functionality that hardly anyone will need or use.
I think the current feature set is a good balance.
You have to think in shades of grey, not black and white. It's not an "all or nothing" scenario. You can't put everything in, and you can't leave everything out.

To take the padlock example:
Only people who are focusing heavily on the innards of cryptography are interested in key length or algorithm. That is obscure gimmickery.
Everyone else wants to know they are having "a secure connection" and a basic level of security if applicable. That is basic functionality.


Your comments and the padlock example given perfectly explain what a non technical average user (like myself) wants in a browser and this is why when I'm using Windows, I use Pale Moon as my default browser and have relegated Firefox as my backup browser.
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby opera1215b1748 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:09 pm

Why not IE then?
It also has just a pad-lock (at least IEv8).
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby dark_moon » Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:22 pm

Cause IE is slow&unsecure and didn't have the many addons.
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby Moonchild » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:12 pm

opera1215b1748 wrote:Why not IE then?
It also has just a pad-lock (at least IEv8).


I hope you're not trying to troll, now.
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby GaiaSmith » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:21 am

opera1215b1748 wrote:Why not IE then?
It also has just a pad-lock (at least IEv8).

Cuz everybody with at least half a brain knoz that IE(dot)sux...? ;)
Last edited by GaiaSmith on Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby ninaholic » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:32 am

IE is always the first thing I disable in "Add/Remove Windows Components" on a new laptop. I always keep a Pale Moon exe on a USB stick so I don't even need to use IE to install it. Hasta la vista baby! :D

Oddly, IE still works after the exes in the "C:\Program Files\Internet Explorer" directory are removed though.
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby tribaljet » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:37 am

Now now, don't be mean. After all, IE has an excellent quality:
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby opera1215b1748 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:05 pm

Moonchild wrote:
opera1215b1748 wrote:Why not IE then?
It also has just a pad-lock (at least IEv8).

I hope you're not trying to troll, now.

Of course not!
If someone is after seeing "just a pad-lock" - then any browser will do.

Some posters here sound more trolling than one could say about my post. Unwashed masses will never use PM - they have no idea PM exists, they do not know what a browser is, not to mention there could be different flavors of browsers.
Those who do use PM - are NOT "technical average" users.

OK, to conclude (before the administrative measures are applied), I mostly like PM, you, MC, have promised to have a look at HTTPS-related info display, I'll wait.
PM is good browser - the only one with reasonable development plan.

(I may look cross, but this is not because of PM - it is because of the otherbrowser fate)
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby ninaholic » Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:35 pm

opera1215b1748 wrote:Those who do use PM - are NOT "technical average" users.

For me, I was not liking the 5-10 second Javascript hangs I was getting in Firefox on my Atom netbook, and then once Firefox started to implement their "hidden background program to force you to upgrade" in Firefox 12, I decided it was time to look for something lighter and less intrusive. Pale Moon was the first option I heard about that was 32-bit, and I saw no reason to go back to Firefox after using it (I kept trying Firefox out again every few versions, and the performance/stability did not ever come close to matching Pale Moon again for me until version 24). IE was always a complete joke to me performance/compatibility/security/stability wise. I wouldn't say it was technical skills but more "regular user observations" and "dissatisfaction with everything else" that made me try out Pale Moon. When you browse the internet 6+ hours a day, you want something that you actually enjoy using (similar to getting a job that doesn't piss you off all day every single day). :)
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby Night Wing » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:10 pm

ninaholic wrote:I always keep a Pale Moon exe on a USB stick so I don't even need to use IE to install it. Hasta la vista baby! :D


I always keep the newest Pale Moon installer on my......."5" USB flash drives......just in case I would lose or termporarily misplace a flash drive. :) One can never be too careful. ;)
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby access2godzilla » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:03 am

Night Wing wrote:
ninaholic wrote:I always keep a Pale Moon exe on a USB stick so I don't even need to use IE to install it. Hasta la vista baby! :D


I always keep the newest Pale Moon installer on my......."5" USB flash drives......just in case I would lose or termporarily misplace a flash drive. :) One can never be too careful. ;)


Also, if you don't have local copies of Pale Moon, and don't want to use IE, then open the command prompt and type:

Code: Select all
bitsadmin /transfer palemoondownload /download /priority normal http://storage.sity.nl/palemoon/palemoon-<version>.win32-installer.exe c:\palemoon-<version>.win32-installer.exe


It seems that IE is not even useful for downloading other browsers :)
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby opera1215b1748 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:15 am

access2godzilla wrote:Also, if you don't have local copies of Pale Moon, and don't want to use IE, then open the command prompt and type:

Code: Select all
bitsadmin /transfer palemoondownload /download /priority normal http://storage.sity.nl/palemoon/palemoon-<version>.win32-installer.exe c:\palemoon-<version>.win32-installer.exe


And seeing the above - who can claim that PM users are "technically average"?!
:)
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby Moonchild » Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:30 am

opera1215b1748 wrote:And seeing the above - who can claim that PM users are "technically average"?!
:)

Don't measure a user base by a few geeks ;)

Seeing the below random quote from a very recent support request, can you say this person is "above technically average"? Because that is what I get too:

Where do I find a "help" page? I am NOT trying to deal with technical issues of the type discussed by programmers. I am trying to find answers to such basic questions as "How do I delete / clear my browsing history?" or "How do I mange / enable / disable add-ons?" Searching the web for such questions and answers does not seem to bring to a Pale Moon site.
Am I missing some basic understanding about Pale Moon?


So there's quite the range of different users, from people who just want a browser (most of them) to a small percentage with advanced knowledge of Windows tools and command-line options.
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby Night Wing » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:28 pm

access2godzilla wrote:Also, if you don't have local copies of Pale Moon, and don't want to use IE, then open the command prompt and type:

Code: Select all
bitsadmin /transfer palemoondownload /download /priority normal http://storage.sity.nl/palemoon/palemoon-<version>.win32-installer.exe c:\palemoon-<version>.win32-installer.exe


It seems that IE is not even useful for downloading other browsers :)


I'm strictly a non technical user. I don't use the command prompt (line) because it makes me "uncomfortable" to use it which means if I screw up in the command line and input the wrong code for something, I don't have the technical knowledge to undo the damage I created. If I try using the command line (prompt) and screw things up, I have to go to my next door power user neighbor and get him to fix the damage I've done with CDL since he owns a computer shop and he uses the CDL a few times every week.

I don't mind going in "about:config" to change things in both Pale Moon and Firefox, but the command prompt (line) is a whole different animal for non technical users like myself. People like yourself are power users so you're comfortable using the command prompt (line).

This is why there are three types of computers users which I classify as Illiterate, Non Technical and Power Users and I'm a NT. I know my strengths and weaknesses.

opera1215b1748 wrote:Those who do use PM - are NOT "technical average" users.


You're looking at one. Of all the regular posters on this site who have a considerable amount of messages they've posted on the various forums over many different topics, I have the least amount of technical knowledge of anyone on here. If you check back and see I also run Linux Mint, I chose LM because it reminds me of Windows 7 and it basically works out of the box where I don't have to use the Terminal very much. The Terminal in LM also makes me uncomfortable. In fact, I've only used the Terminal in LM.........twice......and that covers a time span from December of 2012 till today which is one year.
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby ninaholic » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:43 pm

@access2godzilla: When I typed in "bitsadmin" in the command prompt in XP, it said it wasn't a recognized command. According to this, it is not automatically installed by default. Apparently it has been deprecated and replaced by cmdlets in Powershell in Windows 7. I see that I have a C:\SUPPORT\TOOLS directory with SETUP.EXE though, so I guess running that would install it. :)
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby access2godzilla » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:15 am

If you are indeed downloading bitsadmin for XP, you might want to use wget, which is much simpler to use. Download it here, place it in C:\Windows and type on the command line:
Code: Select all
busybox wget http://storage.sity.nl/palemoon/palemoon-<version>.win32-installer.exe
Last edited by access2godzilla on Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby dark_moon » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:37 am

Or if you have windows vista and above you can simple copy the exe path in your windows explorer which open the link your standard browser.
Just copy it in the path line.

Like this:
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby access2godzilla » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:19 am

But it opens up IE for the download, which ninaholic wants to avoid using. Hence comes the suggestion to use bitsadmin or wget.
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby Moonchild » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:50 am

If you're going to download anything to download the browser, might as well stick with the web installer ;)
Download URLs are likely going to change over time.
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Re: Well, I like it, mostly

Postby access2godzilla » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:21 pm

Moonchild wrote:If you're going to download anything to download the browser, might as well stick with the web installer ;)
Download URLs are likely going to change over time.

Then, how does the web installer get to know from where it has to get the binaries?
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