My Internet is getting darker every day

markfilipak · Unread post by **markfilipak** » 2015-07-02, 01:43

Please skip down to Begin Here
(Two threads, nearly a month apart, got combined, and this makes it difficult to follow. Skipping down will help. -- Thank you.)

Hello,
In the last month I've been getting locked out of more and more sites. Usually, I can't log in. I don't know why. Here's an example:

Time Warner Cable has a Chat function for support. Here's the code behind the chat icon (saved using Inspect Element > Copy Outer HTML:

Code: Select all

<a href="#">
<span>
<img src="/content/dam/residential/images/support/icons/liveChat.png" style="vertical-align: middle;">
</span>
<span class="h4">
Chat with us
</span>
</a>

I don't see how this can possibly work to do anything except send the focus to the top of the page (#).

Can anyone shine the light of sanity on this?

Thank You.

markfilipak · Unread post by **markfilipak** » 2015-07-02, 02:24

I reverted to v.25.4.1. It didn't help. I recall my last working PM to be 24.?.? ...somthing... I'll try to find something in that flavor.

What has happened in the last month that is causing all my regular sites to reject my logins?

squarefractal · Unread post by **squarefractal** » 2015-07-02, 02:51

Arbitrary actions without even a semblance of reason are obviously expected not to work.

You should try under a clean profile, or if that doesn't work (like you indicated in some other thread), you should check for system interferences like a HOSTS file or such.

markfilipak · Unread post by **markfilipak** » 2015-07-02, 03:29

squarefractal wrote:Arbitrary actions without even a semblance of reason are obviously expected not to work.

I'm not taking arbitrary actions. A month ago I was having no problems. During the intervening time I've had more and more trouble with a widening constellation of sites. First CNet, then SourceForge, then IMDb, etc.

Seriously, look at the code I posted. The only way it can work is if javascript overloads the <a>-element's href attribute.

squarefractal wrote:You should try under a clean profile,

I tried that.

squarefractal wrote: or if that doesn't work (like you indicated in some other thread), you should check for system interferences like a HOSTS file or such.

I use this HOSTS file: http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm

But I've been using such HOSTS files for years -- I've been using that particular HOSTS file since 2012. Suddenly, I have problems.

I'll tell you what I think has happened. I suspect that Google has recently introduced some new javascript that is being used to make dynamic links by means of event handlers bound to certain CSS attributes ( .... bind to CSS? Huh? Somehow, I don't know how). When the event handler fires it overloads the href string. Why anyone would want to do that, I don't know. Most of the sites with which I'm having trouble could have used static links, but didn't. Why would anyone go to so much effort to make dynamic links when they're not needed? Why? Because it's part of a library, so the web programmer just uses it.

I'm noticing common constructions of these <a>-elements. They have internal <span>-elements and rely on events bubbling up from <span> to <a>. Sometimes the <a>-element doesn't even have an href attribute!

I've reverted back to v.24.7.2. No help.

PS: Correction - The HOSTS file in my Linux virtual machine (this execution environment) is from Nov 2014.

markfilipak · Unread post by **markfilipak** » 2015-07-02, 03:42

The problem appears to NOT be Pale Moon.

Unread post by **Moonchild** » 2015-07-02, 09:22

For future reference, an anchor on a button with just a hashtag usually means that a custom javascript handler is attached to the link (the code included in your post will not show this handler). This handler can do anything from opening a popup to changing a style to.. pretty much anything that can be done in JavaScript. Basically it's a way to redefine <a> to do something different; this is relatively common practice, and relatively difficult to trace back to the non-working code, something usually only the site owners can fix.

Zootal · Unread post by **Zootal** » 2015-07-02, 19:00

I don't know if anyone will find my comments useful or not...

I've experienced the same thing for the last several months. Some sites just don't work anymore with PaleMoon. Sometimes this is caused by Ghostery, a plugin I use, but disabling this only helps about 10% of the time. There are sites that just don't work in the current version of PaleMoon. That doesn't mean it is PaleMoon's fault, because many of the sites used to work, and nothing has changed in PaleMoon - I'm still using the same version that used to work with these sites. Some websites are doing something that is not compatible with PaleMoon. When this happens, I use Chrome, and about 90% of them will work. A few don't even work with Chrome. For those sometimes Opera works, and for the rest I have to fire up a Windbloze VM and use MSIE. The last category is maybe .01% of the websites I frequent, there don't seem to be many MSIE hold-outs left anymore. Good riddance to MSIE.

None of this changes the fact that some sites no longer work with PM, I'm just adding my $.02 that I don't think it is the fault of PM for most of these. Some websites are so loaded with browser specific crap that you pretty much have to use the browser they want you to use to get it to work.

I develop software for internal corporate usage, currently LAMP stack stuff. I develop and test with PaleMoon, and I tell my users to use FireFox (it's a corporate environment where they are not allowed to use PM) or I can't help them if something doesn't work. Somethings just don't work with MSIE, and some things don't even work either Chrome. I make sure everything I do works with PaleMoon, and if I do that I know that everything will likewise work with FireFox, as much as I have come to detest it. Firefox is the compatibility standard for now that I use when developing my apps.

</soapbox>

markfilipak · Unread post by **markfilipak** » 2015-07-03, 04:43

Zootal wrote:... Some websites are doing something that is not compatible with PaleMoon.

Look at the code I posted in my thread-starter. More and more I'm seeing code like that. Obviously, the links are being "executed" by DOM event listeners that are loaded by javascript. I've seen that such code is always associated with Google. The links don't work in my system because I block '.js' that originates from Google domains. I assume the links are being dynamically bound so as to obscure the fact that they vector through Google servers -- in other words, they are tracking links. That means that if you allow javascript, then Google is spying on you even if you don't use Google search. ...even if you search using DuckDuckGo.

Zootal wrote:When this happens, I use Chrome, and about 90% of them will work.

I used to run Chrome in order to check that my pages worked in Chrome, but then I discovered that installing Chrome caused Google to take over my network stack. Even though I used Firefox and visited sites that I knew did not use Google scripts, nonetheless, my HTTP requests were going through Google servers. Hell, even Firefox-browsing my own server in my LAN was going through Google servers! (I used the Live HTTP Headers plugin to discover that.) It took me 2 months to rid myself of Google spyware. I have tried to alert knowledgeable people of this, but it appears no one cares. I can't tell whether they believe me or they think I'm a crackpot. As soon as I bring up Google's spying and how it is done, I never hear from them again.

markfilipak · Unread post by **markfilipak** » 2015-07-28, 01:06

Begin Here

Hi All,

Things are continuing to go downhill for me. I now cannot log in at:

avsforum.com
ebay.com
cnet.com
amazon.com
imdb.com
sourceforge.net
answers.microsoft.com <-- new

A couple of days ago I could still long in at microsoft.com. Today, no.

Also, now when I attempt to log in at either CNet or Microsoft I sometimes get this: "Something went wrong. Try again later" or it sometimes just fails silently.

What is going wrong? I don't know and the web sites didn't tell me. Of course, they know, but don't bother to say.

I'm elegible for the Free Windows 10 Upgrade, but I can't contact Microsoft to get it. Perhaps Windows 7 is cursed. Perhaps installing Windows 10 will heal my disease. I've tried Windows with VirtualBox running, Windows with VirtualBox not running, Linux, Firefox (stripped), PaleMoon (in so-called "Safe Mode"), Emply HOSTS file, blocking HOSTS file, with JAVA enabled, with JAVA disabled, and many, many virus scans (though a virus seems extremely unlikely).

Problem Statement:
To refresh your memory: I log in, but I'm not logged in (i.e., site won't let me do things). When I try to log in again, nothing happens (or a blank popup appears then disappears, or the page refreshes but is unchanged). When I try to reregister (as a test) the site says "You are already logged in". When I'm at the user-configuration screens, all is okay, but if I log out and log back in (which succeeds) and then go to the main site, I'm not logged in. Every day my Internet goes darker. I can still log in here, but not many other places.

If someone can contact Microsoft on my behalf, give them
Moderator note: e-mail removed
and tell them what's happening to me (copy this message). Perhaps they will contact me. If more convenient, give them my phone #:
Moderator note: telephone number removed.

Thank you.

markfilipak · Unread post by **markfilipak** » 2015-07-28, 01:31

Skip this. It's from the old thread. -- Thank you.

Hi squarefractal,

I was reading through this stuff and I noticed that I never responded to this message.

squarefractal wrote:Arbitrary actions without even a semblance of reason are obviously expected not to work.

You should try under a clean profile, or if that doesn't work (like you indicated in some other thread), you should check for system interferences like a HOSTS file or such.

I did try a "clean" profile. I tried it about a week before your posing. I tried it for a couple of days. It had no effect. My symptoms changed not a bit.

markfilipak · Unread post by **markfilipak** » 2015-07-28, 01:37

Skip this. It's from the old thread. -- Thank you.

Hi MC,

I'm reviewing stuff and ran into this posting:

Moonchild wrote:For future reference, an anchor on a button with just a hashtag usually means that a custom javascript handler is attached to the link (the code included in your post will not show this handler). This handler can do anything from opening a popup to changing a style to.. pretty much anything that can be done in JavaScript. Basically it's a way to redefine <a> to do something different; this is relatively common practice, and relatively difficult to trace back to the non-working code, something usually only the site owners can fix.

I have written such javascript. I thought it was cool. Now I think it's hazardous. I'm beginning to think that all links should be static.

Once upon a time, in the IETF, there was a raging debate about Netscape's new invention: javascript. Some thought it would destroy the Internet. They may have been right.

Unread post by **Night Wing** » 2015-07-28, 02:36

Here is one thing you haven't tried. And I have a feeling you won't want to try it because the work is time consuming.

At the shop where I help out at, I had a customer who like you, couldn't log in to the sites he normally could log into. My suggestion to him was a simple one. I told him to back up his bookmarks and nothing else. Then wipe the hard drive and re-install Windows 7 plus all the MSFT updates he wanted on his computer, download the programs he normally used and configure each one. When it came to the browser of his choice, I told him "not to transfer his old profile" from the browser he was using and was having problems with and at the time, he was using Firefox.

Well, my suggestion "didn't tickle his fancy". He left. One week later he came back. Long story short, I re-installed his Windows 7 operating system for him, did all the MSFT KB updates he wanted installed and which KB updates he wanted to hide, downloaded and installed the Firefox browser and configured FF to his liking in both Options and "about:config". When I was done, I called him at his home and told him I had finished with his computer. He came back to the shop the very next morning as soon as the shop opened up. Then while he was still at the shop, I told him to go to the sites where he couldn't log into and lo and behold, he could log in again. I told him if he was going to use add-ons/extension, to install them "one by one" and test each one out before he installed another extension.

Sometimes it is easier to paint a duplicate masterpiece from a blank canvas than trying to fix an original masterpiece which became damaged to the point where it seems it cannot be fixed.

markfilipak · Unread post by **markfilipak** » 2015-07-28, 04:12

Night Wing wrote:Here is one thing you haven't tried. ...

I'm not going to try it, not because it's time consuming, but because I sincerely believe it won't make any difference.
Question: If I always logged into my chosen sites using PM (or FF) running in a Linux VM, how is it that I now can't log into them using PM in the Win7 Host?
In the Win7 Host I've also tried PM 25.5.0 with a fresh new profile, and I've tried FF 39.0 without any mods at all.
The only thing linking the Linux Mint Guest and the Win7 Host is the VirtualBox bridge driver. I'm going to try something ...
(stay tuned)

markfilipak · Unread post by **markfilipak** » 2015-07-28, 04:41

I'm back. It didn't work.

I shut down the Linux Guest, terminated the Win7 VirtualBox daemon, and removed the VirtualBox bridge driver.
I ran my shiny new FF 39.0 in Win7, and made sure I could get to the net (I logged into my on-line bank).
I tried logging into my trouble web sites. No joy.

I ran the Linux VM and it would not start because the network config was bad (...I had removed the bridge driver).

I re-enabled the VirtualBox bridge driver and tried getting to the Internet in both Host & Guest.

Everything is back to normal (meaning: my "normal" trouble is back, I can't log in to all those sites I used to be persistently logged into.)

This all came up when a lot of sites switched from allowing arbitrary usernames to demanding that users use email addresses for log in. I can't get it out of my mind that something completely out of my control is blocking me. I used to belong to Google+ without knowing it, and before I pulled the plug on it. ................

SvenG · Unread post by **SvenG** » 2015-07-28, 07:58

This sounds like you have broken something on a very low level completely (maybe the network). The problem is that it is neither related to Pale Moon on Linux nor is it something that can be analyzed easily (if at all) from afar, so we really can't help. If I were you I would consider to get some local help. Don't get me wrong Mark, it's not like we don't wont to help you, but I am afraid you can open another five threads on this topic and it won't get you any further.

Unread post by **satrow** » 2015-07-28, 08:21

SvenG wrote:This sounds like you have broken something on a very low level completely (maybe the network). The problem is that it is neither related to Pale Moon on Linux nor is it something that can be analyzed easily (if at all) from afar, so we really can't help. If I were you I would consider to get some local help. Don't get me wrong Mark, it's not like we don't wont to help you, but I am afraid you can open another five threads on this topic and it won't get you any further.

Agreed, I was wondering whether some of these issues might be down to a problem with the router.

SvenG · Unread post by **SvenG** » 2015-07-28, 09:26

satrow wrote:
SvenG wrote:This sounds like you have broken something on a very low level completely (maybe the network). The problem is that it is neither related to Pale Moon on Linux nor is it something that can be analyzed easily (if at all) from afar, so we really can't help. If I were you I would consider to get some local help. Don't get me wrong Mark, it's not like we don't wont to help you, but I am afraid you can open another five threads on this topic and it won't get you any further.
Agreed, I was wondering whether some of these issues might be down to a problem with the router.

For example, that was also what came to my mind, either the router or some borked network settings, sometimes people try to do weird things. But still it's just guessing and it might be something completely different. Maybe, sooner or later, somebody is lucky guessing the right thing. Maybe it is something that can be fixed in minutes, if you can systematically analyze what is going wrong. We are messing around with this for three weeks now and all we have is some symptoms that seem to not effect a lot of people (else it would be known) and some vague theories based on... well, virtually nothing.

Unread post by **Night Wing** » 2015-07-28, 11:46

I use linux Mint 17 (Qiana) on one desktop tower computer and Mint 17.1 (Rebecca) on my second desktop tower computer and I've never run into the problems the OP is having. Of course, my Mint operating systems along with linux Pale Moon aren't installed inside any virtual machine either.

The OP's situation has been going on three weeks now. I think he should re-install Mint and re-installing Mint isn't like re-installing Windows. Mint installs quickly and the updates install quickly with no restarting of the computer. If the OP has custom coding which he has installed, then it is going to take time to get back to where he was. But a fresh install of linux Mint is "not" going to take three weeks. At this point after three weeks, the OP is just "spinning his wheels in place and not going anywhere".

If the fresh install of Mint takes place (and not installing any custom coding in Mint), then install linux Pale Moon (and not installing any custom coding for PM) and if the OP can log in to the sites where he has an account, then his problem is solved. If he cannot log in, then I would suspect the router.

I understand the OP does not want to do the above, but sometimes "one has to bite the bullet" if you get my drift.

SvenG · Unread post by **SvenG** » 2015-07-28, 18:58

If I got that right, and it is really hard to follow this topic or these topics so I may have gotten that wrong, Mark's problem occurs in both Linux Mint as the guest system and Windows 7 as the host system. In that case reinstalling Linux Mint is not likely to change something (unless both systems are borked in the same way). I would try to run the system with a Live Linux, if that doesn't work as well, there is most likely something wrong with the hardware (either on the system itself or in the network).

Unread post by **Moonchild** » 2015-07-28, 19:57

So, this is a general system issue then, unrelated to OS? In that case I'll move it to the technical chat board.

Pale Moon forum