[fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

The l10n of Pale Moon. Rawr.
tmtisfree

[fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by tmtisfree » 2015-10-04, 13:45

Hello,

I have updated the French language for Pale Moon 25.7 directly from the old one on your website (25.6),
as I was unable to register on BabelZilla for some reason.

All remaining English strings have hopefully been translated.

I notice that there are still some English strings in Pale Moon:
- "enabled" and "disabled" at the top of Extensions page of the Add-ons Manager


Bye,
TMTisFree

French language for Pale Moon 25.7 (updated 20/10/2015)
French language for Pale Moon 25.7 (updated 08/11/2015)
Attachments
fr_v25.7.xpi
French language for Pale Moon 25.7 (updated 08/11/2015)
(332.44 KiB) Downloaded 145 times
Last edited by tmtisfree on 2015-11-08, 16:29, edited 7 times in total.

intofix

Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7

Unread post by intofix » 2015-10-04, 20:15

This function showing the number of addons and how much are "enabled" and "disabled" is added by an extension, like for ex "Cleanest Addon Manager" which is in English. Nickel the translation, thanks.

tmtisfree

Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7

Unread post by tmtisfree » 2015-10-04, 22:55

Ah yes, you're right: I have this extension!

Thank you for your kind words!

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Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by Moonchild » 2015-10-06, 12:40

Thank you for your work! I'll see about manually updating the language pack since you had no luck with babelzilla.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
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tmtisfree

Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by tmtisfree » 2015-10-20, 10:36

Hello,
Moonchild wrote:Thank you for your work! I'll see about manually updating the language pack since you had no luck with babelzilla.
Just to let you known I have finalized the entire review of the Pale Moon French strings
and updated the XPI file accordingly in the OP. There will be no more update of this translation
at this stage for this version of Pale Moon.

Could you see if you are able to update the Transifex French strings with this version to have
them in sync (see viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8703&p=67201#p67201)?

Best regards,
TMTisFree

Exagone313

Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by Exagone313 » 2015-11-08, 15:04

You replaced every occurrences of the word "web" by "internet" and this is incorrect. Web almost equals to http only, but internet is everything.
Also, you made a mistake : "ne pas pister" => "ne pas me pister". Look at Firefox's language pack.

tmtisfree

Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by tmtisfree » 2015-11-08, 16:11

Exagone313 wrote:You replaced every occurrences of the word "web" by "internet" and this is incorrect. Web almost equals to http only, but internet is everything.
Also, you made a mistake : "ne pas pister" => "ne pas me pister". Look at Firefox's language pack.
The first is not a mistake, but a deliberate choice. Let me explain why: you are right that in French we should literally translate "web" with "toile", but it is a narrow view. As an example, a "web site" is not a "site toile" but a "site internet". It is better to have a translation that is a bit broad but in the usual knowledge of an average person, than a literally right one which means nothing.

Thank you for pointing out the error of removing "me". I will re-add it soon with some very minor corrections (wrong short-cuts mostly). I will update the first post of this thread.

Bye,
TMTisFree

Edit: the updated translation has been uploaded, see the first post. Thank again.

Exagone313

Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by Exagone313 » 2015-11-08, 16:41

You should check the difference between web and internet.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuli ... tes/007052
http://www.insolus.com/article-site-web-internet
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adresse_web

Maybe an administrator should decide for this issue.

So I corrected one or two things and reverted the change for web. Note that Internet is a correct word when it does effectively concern Internet itself.
Attachments
fr.xpi
(872.36 KiB) Downloaded 74 times

tmtisfree

Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by tmtisfree » 2015-11-09, 19:27

The first sentence of the first link you provide says exactly why I made the change:

"Internet et le web sont régulièrement utilisés comme des synonymes [en français]"
for English users this means: "Both Internet and web words are usually used as synonymous [in French]"

So as I said previously, it's better to go with a commonly used word understood and used by everyone.

I must add that in Pale Moon the word is used most exclusively associated with the word "site" (as in "website" or "web site"), and in French a "site internet" is not only a correct translation, but a very used one (in IT and common life). Just go to Google and ask: https://www.google.fr/search?q=site+int ... JAE&hcns=1

All these IT pros can't be all wrong.

So I will not go back.

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Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by mgagnonlv » 2015-11-10, 15:29

Hello tmtisfree,

As a French-speaking Canadian, I tend to agree with you on this one. On this side of the ocean, I (we) tend to consider "web" as a lazy shorthand and prefer "internet" or "site internet".
Michel Gagnon
Montréal (Québec, Canada)

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Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by Moonchild » 2015-11-12, 20:58

I nudged some of my translation colleagues about it.

It should most definitely be "site web", and not "site internet" in French whenever you are talking about websites and web pages in a browser (http/https). Considering this is a web browser for http/https, the localization should therefore be "web" unless it deals specifically with more general protocols on the Internet that aren't http. In this situation, English would also use "Internet" (e.g. for proxies in options "Configure how Pale Moon connects to the internet" should be "Internet").

"web" and "internet" aren't synonyms that you can just choose your "preference" from.

Some glossaries I checked also agree.
French translation: Site Web
tout simplement
Le terme de Web semble s'imposer dans le langage courant; bien que certains aient proposé site Internet, site sur la Toile.
en toute rigueur un site Internet englobe tout: pages Web, serveur ftp, messagerie électronique, etc

Site Web est plus restrictif: uniquement les pages HTML (serveur http:)
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
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Aube Bleue

Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by Aube Bleue » 2015-11-13, 04:13

Moonchild wrote:It should most definitely be "site web", and not "site internet" in French whenever you are talking about websites and web pages in a browser (http/https).
I concur, the hyponym Web should be used in this context.

Also, a term I would like to see translated is cookie. In French, the correct translation is témoin.

Reference for témoin: http://www.granddictionnaire.com/ficheO ... he=2075216

Thanks.

tmtisfree

Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by tmtisfree » 2015-11-13, 12:14

Pale Moon is able to also do ftp(s):// (and probably other protocols), so by your own definition it is more of an internet agent than a web agent (too restrictive). We can all agree that an ftp site is not a web site.

Anyway the 2 words are used equivalently in French to describe http(s):// sites, and "site internet" is as common as, if not more common than, a "site web" (see the previous Google link).

I think it is fair to say that I choose "internet" as a not so English-sounding word compared to "web" and regarding the capacity of Pale Moon to handle more than http(s)://.

So to conclude: I claim no preference myself apart from the 3 facts that "internet" sounds less English, reflects better the intrinsic capacities of Pale Moon and is commonly used in French in the context of Pale Moon. I cannot think of better justifications to use the "internet" word.

Edit:
1/ Google translation gives "site internet" for "website".
2/ The European IATE website (http://iate.europa.eu/SearchByQueryLoad.do?method=load) says that "site internet" is as reliable as "site web" but that "site web" is "preferred" (no reason given). It also says that "Si un site web est un site internet, l'inverse n'est pas forcément vrai: il existe d'autres types de site internet (site FTP, Telnet, etc.). As Pale Moon is able to do more than HTTP, it is correct to broaden the scope.
3/ On the Académie Française website, there is no "site web" to be found (http://www.academie-francaise.fr/search/node/site%20web). Instead we find plenty of "site internet" (its own is described as a "site internet"): http://www.academie-francaise.fr/search ... 20internet
4/ All that above pertains to fr_FR, your mileage may vary in other idioms.
Last edited by tmtisfree on 2015-11-13, 13:31, edited 1 time in total.

tmtisfree

Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by tmtisfree » 2015-11-13, 12:21

Aube Bleue wrote:
Moonchild wrote:It should most definitely be "site web", and not "site internet" in French whenever you are talking about websites and web pages in a browser (http/https).
I concur, the hyponym Web should be used in this context.

Also, a term I would like to see translated is cookie. In French, the correct translation is témoin.

Reference for témoin: http://www.granddictionnaire.com/ficheO ... he=2075216

Thanks.
I am from France and we don't use "témoin" here. As there is only one French translation for Pale Moon (compared to a fr_FR, fr_CA, fr_BE, etc), perhaps you could request a specific idiom to be setup for Pale Moon.

tmtisfree

Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by tmtisfree » 2015-11-13, 13:38

Moonchild wrote:In this situation, English would also use "Internet" (e.g. for proxies in options "Configure how Pale Moon connects to the internet" should be "Internet").
IIRC I have corrected this minor error ("internet" vs "Internet") in the French version whenever I encountered it.

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Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by Moonchild » 2015-11-13, 14:08

You misunderstand. I wasn't talking about capitalization. I was talking about using the correct term.

Also, supporting FTP has nothing to do with where these terms are used ("web pages" are not retrieved over FTP!) so please don't try to push the argument just to win it.
I know in the translation business as well some people insist on using "internet" instead of "web" but I disagree, so does the majority of linguists, and so do my direct colleagues.
IMO, especially "page internet" and "site internet" are misnomers when talking about webpages and websites. Even if a "site" can encompass more than just the web part of it, HTML is by definition served over http (it's the hypertext protocol) and as such "web" (short for "world-wide web", AKA www) so most definitely from the browser's point of view it can only be one thing.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

tmtisfree

Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by tmtisfree » 2015-11-13, 19:15

Moonchild wrote:You misunderstand. I wasn't talking about capitalization. I was talking about using the correct term.
Right.
Moonchild wrote:Also, supporting FTP has nothing to do with where these terms are used ("web pages" are not retrieved over FTP!) so please don't try to push the argument just to win it.
I know in the translation business as well some people insist on using "internet" instead of "web" but I disagree, so does the majority of linguists, and so do my direct colleagues.
IMO, especially "page internet" and "site internet" are misnomers when talking about webpages and websites. Even if a "site" can encompass more than just the web part of it, HTML is by definition served over http (it's the hypertext protocol) and as such "web" (short for "world-wide web", AKA www) so most definitely from the browser's point of view it can only be one thing.
Well, the French linguists from the Académie française disagree: "site internet" is correct while "site web" does not exist on their reference website. So obviously, they are not the same linguists as yours but if we are to take the expert way, the French experts are the only ones to refer to in fr_FR matter.

Second, I just ask one of the IT pros I usually work with, as they specialize in websites (http://www.agence-webcorp.com/; in passing note the footer on their webpage says "© WEBCORP 2015, Tout droits réservés. Agence de communication & création de site internet"): they also used "site internet" at work and with their customers (the same people that run Pale Moon). Of course it is only 1 pro and their customers, but Google also shows that many other pros use "site internet" themselves.

Third, from a translation perspective it's true that I care much more about the user's experience (especially the one who is not fluent in English or in technology as are typically the elders) and less on the precision of the word/meaning if the replacing word is more expressive (we say "parlant" in french). It's common practice in the translation business (I have 25 years, mostly in IT) to do so: the user is who matters, not the absolute precision of the technique if it adds nothing to the meaning; and here, there is no compelling case that "site web" adds anything in readability or any other benefit for the user. On the contrary, IMHO.

So we have to balance between a technically exact English word which is not translated in French, a position not recommended by the French experts from the Académie Française btw, and for which we have no statistics of use, as compared to a word that everyone, both pro and non-pro, knows or at least have heard of in the media, and that is widely encountered in the context that interests us here.

It is a disservice to the user to utilize an English word when a more expressive (but admittedly a bit less precise technically speaking) word is possible, and in this case is already commonly used.

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Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by Moonchild » 2015-11-14, 10:59

Sorry, discussion closed.
It's "site web" and nothing else in our terminology. I've done my research to verify its correct use (and I think the entire community at proz would have a thing or two to say about it if it wasn't correct usage).

I know some people insist on using other terms, and as long as there are groups like your 'academie' that want to continue to force the matter for their preference, there will be dichotomy. That doesn't matter, though. Our terminology will be "site web" for French and French flavors, as a translator you MUST stick to the set terminology even if you personally disagree with it. If you really have 25 years experience then you must know this.
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tmtisfree

Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by tmtisfree » 2015-11-14, 12:58

Moonchild wrote:Sorry, discussion closed.
It's "site web" and nothing else in our terminology. I've done my research to verify its correct use (and I think the entire community at proz would have a thing or two to say about it if it wasn't correct usage).

I know some people insist on using other terms, and as long as there are groups like your 'academie' that want to continue to force the matter for their preference, there will be dichotomy. That doesn't matter, though. Our terminology will be "site web" for French and French flavors, as a translator you MUST stick to the set terminology even if you personally disagree with it. If you really have 25 years experience then you must know this.
1/ I am not the one who has introduced the linguists here, so do not accuse me of that, please, just because the experts says the opposite of what you appear to support (you express your own preferences, no problem here, and gives only anecdotal evidences).
2/ I think I presented sufficient datasources to rebut your principled position/opinion in this matter.
3/ I did not exposed my personal preferences (which are more complex that the simple one you assume wrongly), and which are as follows:
- the scientist/IT pro/webmaster/website-builder side of me says that "site web" is more correct that "site internet";
- the Pale Moon user side of me says that he don't care because that does not change anything in his browsing experience;
- the translator side of me says that many users think that Google (or Facebook) IS the "internet" and don't event know what is the "web" is or what it is definition or history, so that what we have to deal with is not a matter of being technically precise while the main target (the user) is evidently not. What I care about as a translator is that the user understand easily what he reads without using a dictionary to take the appropriate action when confronted with a choice.

As an example, everyone, scientists included, talk incorrectly of "greenhouse effect" in the atmosphere although the atmosphere is definitively not a greenhouse. The effect is best described physically by the words "atmospheric effect" but nobody uses that. Same thing with abbreviations: it is better to use an abbreviation as is than the full words (the worst to do is to try to translate).

So this is the king of things I care about when I translate, and this includes not being technically precise when this adds nothing for the user. It seems our priorities are somewhat not identical here and I confess I have trouble to understand why.

I have nothing to add further, so you can close the thread if you wish.

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Re: [fr] French translation update for v25.7 (updated)

Unread post by Moonchild » 2015-11-14, 13:29

I thank you for your efforts in improving the french language pack but kindly request you do not contribute anything further. We are obviously not on the same page.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

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