Speed up boot times

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Moonchild
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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Moonchild » 2013-12-30, 01:03

@megaman:
If you want the browser at the ready in <2 seconds at all times, then put it in your Windows startup group and don't close it unless you shut down Windows.
You can set it to "hibernate" when minimizing by using trim_on_minimize in about:config if active memory use is a problem for you.

There are alternatives possible. A small tool that preloads all Pale Moon application files into memory/cache, for example - but that too will have its drawbacks. Or set up a RAM drive with the app files on it to be loaded at boot time, for example. Somehow, though, I don't think I/O would be the bottleneck, but rather processing power caused by initialization of code/UI.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
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raindress

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by raindress » 2013-12-30, 07:37

thought that my 15-20sec browser load time was normal!? until this post.started to go thru all this post,even adding "guru" line to about:config(after some search)don't know it's affect yet. my system is slow,use xp. tried changing palemoon properties to run minimized window(?)good luck. and adding something to .exe with no difference. have tried "palemin" .what puts the second counting to the background is to load PM at windows startup & load the extension: Minimize On Start and Close 1.3.2 with a setting of 50ms. a case of no look,no see. so who's counting now?!! something to do with a rocket,payload & liftoff? browser,extensions,speed? :idea:

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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Moonchild » 2013-12-30, 11:17

raindress wrote:thought that my 15-20sec browser load time was normal!?
It is for a first start on a slow system. As stated, modern browsers simply take some time to load up because of the way they work.
My system takes, as stated, about 6 seconds for a fresh start - that is loading on a fast quad-core system with 16GB of RAM and an SSD/HD combo (browser loads from HD, profile is on SSD). Getting 2 or 3 times that is normal for a slow system.

People are probably being just too impatient. :P

PS: If you don't know what something does, don't add it to about:config. The defaults are recommended for everyone.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

megaman

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by megaman » 2013-12-30, 14:30

Moonchild wrote:@megaman:
If you want the browser at the ready in <2 seconds at all times, then put it in your Windows startup group and don't close it unless you shut down Windows.
You can set it to "hibernate" when minimizing by using trim_on_minimize in about:config if active memory use is a problem for you.

There are alternatives possible. A small tool that preloads all Pale Moon application files into memory/cache, for example - but that too will have its drawbacks. Or set up a RAM drive with the app files on it to be loaded at boot time, for example. Somehow, though, I don't think I/O would be the bottleneck, but rather processing power caused by initialization of code/UI.
It will be done.
Yeah, the preloader tool is a pain, most of the time it is because I have to rename Palemoon to Firefox, and that causes many issues to begin with.
Ah yes, I forgot to try that AMD RAM Drive, I'll check it out.

Edit: Right, sometimes I look up something fast, information on a game or to find information on something that comes to mind at the very moment, and I need the browser to load-up fast to get things done. Sometimes I forget the reason I open the browser because I am more focus on waiting for it to load that I push away the reason for opening it in the first place. (Meh, I didn't think about using Flash Note in the first place to jot things down. Okay, no more need to worry about Boot times.)

Edit 2: A co-worker got arrested last year and I had my phone off. Imagine the pain I had to go through while I wait for the phone to get to the UI, so I can jot the number down that he wanted, no pen in hand. (By the time the phone was ready, they already had taken him downtown) Lesson learned, carry paper and pen.

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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Trinoc » 2013-12-30, 15:34

With an earlier Firefox (3.6) I found that running Speedyfox occasionally to defragment the records in the sqlite files improved start-up time a lot. I still run it with Palemoon 24 but I don't know how much difference it makes since I have never left it long enough for the files to get seriously fragmented.

Edit: I just closed Palemoon, ran Speedyfox, then started Palemoon again. It took 10 seconds to start. I have 33 add-ons and I'm running XP SP3 on a 3GHz Pentium 4 (with hyper-threading), 4GB of RAM and disks with about 100MB/sec peak transfer rate.
Last edited by Trinoc on 2013-12-30, 15:39, edited 1 time in total.

megaman

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by megaman » 2013-12-30, 15:37

Trinoc wrote:With an earlier Firefox (3.6) I found that running Speedyfox occasionally to defragment the records in the sqlite files improved start-up time a lot. I still run it with Palemoon 24 but I don't know how much difference it makes since I have never left it long enough for the files to get seriously fragmented.
I have used it several times in different versions of Firefox, but it doesn't do any difference to me, at least. It is a good program, no doubt.

mr666

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by mr666 » 2013-12-30, 20:12

Mines are :
192.67 25.00 3305.67 46862.67 16687.00 sessionRestored:16703.00 5207.33 16506.00
as average!

:think:

I have an old notebook with Xp, just 1 ,4 Ram and 4 add-ons extensions active.

link68759

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by link68759 » 2013-12-31, 03:04

megaman wrote:I tried this extension, several times, but it hardly works any wonders for me and my 22 add-ons.
I tried Chromium-based browsers with 25 extensions that almost equal the add-ons and features that Palemoon does better, but Chromium-based loads-up in a blink of an eye, regardless of amount of extensions.
Nothing compares to Firefox/Palemoon, to me, but these slow start-ups are a pain.
Trinoc wrote:I can never understand why programs which people frequently want to keep running in the background (browsers, emailers, etc.) do not have minimizing to the system tray as a standard option.
I normally start up Palemoon (and Thunderbird) just once on boot-up. If I need the memory they are using for something else they just get swapped out to the page file.
I have tons of add-ons and tabs that I don't want the browser hogging any of the resources that I use for gaming, so I close the browser. Besides, I use CleanMem and the browser still ends up hogging too much memory and I can't free it even with the CleanMem feature, so I have to close the browser. CleanMem would work similar to Minimize to Tray Revived, but it works manually when I need it (I use it a lot when needed) or automatically in a set time frame. Also, you can do the minimize thing that frees-up memory from the about:config manually.
Chrome is running in the background 24/7, which is why it seems to "start instantly". Google's software is glorified adware/spyware and imo it is poor practice to do that without telling the user (as well as all of their auto update services you can't stop or even easily uninstall).

My warm start is 7 seconds moonchild, I wasn't aware there was such a thing as a cold start so I haven't measured it yet. You say 7 seconds is acceptable........ if I click a link on a web page, is it acceptable to wait 7 seconds for a new tab to be opened, before the page even starts downloading? There are many times when an external program wants to open a web page (8.1's nifty search for example will bring me to the download page of a program if I had not already had it installed), and my work flow comes to a grinding halt if I had not remembered to start palemoon earlier.

My preferred solution would be to have it running in the background at boot, and "starting" it via shortcut or URL unhides the window. I guess I can try sloppily doing that myself with autohotkey, but I was hoping to get some answers about that extension I posted.

Unless there's a lighter alternative to ABP that also comes in pop up blocker form (apb pop up blocker is an amazing extension, abp rule hider for pages is awesome), or unless abp can be made more efficient, I can't actually do much about extension boot time. I know ABP is responsible for like 3-4 seconds, which is ridiculous, but what can I do?

Accel

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Accel » 2013-12-31, 06:08

link68759 wrote:
megaman wrote:I tried this extension, several times, but it hardly works any wonders for me and my 22 add-ons.
I tried Chromium-based browsers with 25 extensions that almost equal the add-ons and features that Palemoon does better, but Chromium-based loads-up in a blink of an eye, regardless of amount of extensions.
Nothing compares to Firefox/Palemoon, to me, but these slow start-ups are a pain.
Trinoc wrote:I can never understand why programs which people frequently want to keep running in the background (browsers, emailers, etc.) do not have minimizing to the system tray as a standard option.
I normally start up Palemoon (and Thunderbird) just once on boot-up. If I need the memory they are using for something else they just get swapped out to the page file.
I have tons of add-ons and tabs that I don't want the browser hogging any of the resources that I use for gaming, so I close the browser. Besides, I use CleanMem and the browser still ends up hogging too much memory and I can't free it even with the CleanMem feature, so I have to close the browser. CleanMem would work similar to Minimize to Tray Revived, but it works manually when I need it (I use it a lot when needed) or automatically in a set time frame. Also, you can do the minimize thing that frees-up memory from the about:config manually.
Chrome is running in the background 24/7, which is why it seems to "start instantly". Google's software is glorified adware/spyware and imo it is poor practice to do that without telling the user (as well as all of their auto update services you can't stop or even easily uninstall).

My warm start is 7 seconds moonchild, I wasn't aware there was such a thing as a cold start so I haven't measured it yet. You say 7 seconds is acceptable........ if I click a link on a web page, is it acceptable to wait 7 seconds for a new tab to be opened, before the page even starts downloading? There are many times when an external program wants to open a web page (8.1's nifty search for example will bring me to the download page of a program if I had not already had it installed), and my work flow comes to a grinding halt if I had not remembered to start palemoon earlier.

My preferred solution would be to have it running in the background at boot, and "starting" it via shortcut or URL unhides the window. I guess I can try sloppily doing that myself with autohotkey, but I was hoping to get some answers about that extension I posted.

Unless there's a lighter alternative to ABP that also comes in pop up blocker form (apb pop up blocker is an amazing extension, abp rule hider for pages is awesome), or unless abp can be made more efficient, I can't actually do much about extension boot time. I know ABP is responsible for like 3-4 seconds, which is ridiculous, but what can I do?
how about using this extension?

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefo ... lentblock/

the only downside is it use regex not the usual abp filter and no subcription so you must make your own lists.

link68759

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by link68759 » 2013-12-31, 07:40

Thanks, but if there's not a predefined blacklist to import, not interested. I'm not about to expose myself to hundreds of ads and just block them one by one with regex expressions. And according to the comments, restart firefox every time to have the changes take effect, only to realize you typed it wrong.... That doesn't cover ad blocking or element hiding either.

jumba

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by jumba » 2013-12-31, 08:34

Trinoc wrote:I can never understand why programs which people frequently want to keep running in the background (browsers, emailers, etc.) do not have minimizing to the system tray as a standard option.

With Palemoon I use "MinimizeToTray revived" (https://tn123.org/mintrayr/). I use the option to minimize to the tray when I click on close ("[x]"), to prevent me from accidentally shutting it down, but there is the option of only catching the minimize button.

Minimizing on close has an unfortunate "feature" in that if you close a secondary window (often even a pop-up) this ends up minimized to the tray as well, and you can end up with multiple Palemoon icons in the tray. It's annoying, but you can get rid of the extras by right clicking the icon in the tray and selecting "Close window".

I normally start up Palemoon (and Thunderbird) just once on boot-up. If I need the memory they are using for something else they just get swapped out to the page file.
I'm also using MinimizeToTray revived. Browser is the only program that I'm using all the time, and it is better to be always loaded.

One problem with the addon was that it doesn't have an option (like "single window mode") to bring the minimized browser instance in front when new instances are opened through a shortcut from the desktop or quicklaunch bar. I found an solution for this to use "-new-tab <url>" as a launch parameter for the shortcuts, and it is now working perfectly!

Also this addon can be combined with the addon "Minimize On Start and Close" and launch the browser on system boot to have it waiting in the tray.

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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Moonchild » 2013-12-31, 08:41

link68759 wrote:My warm start is 7 seconds moonchild, I wasn't aware there was such a thing as a cold start so I haven't measured it yet. You say 7 seconds is acceptable........ if I click a link on a web page, is it acceptable to wait 7 seconds for a new tab to be opened, before the page even starts downloading?
If you aren't running Pale Moon yet, then that is the amount of time it will take. Think of it this way: if you click a .doc in explorer, is 30 seconds for Office to start acceptable? I'd say so.

If you are already running Pale Moon and you are clicking a link in a web page opened in it, then it most certainly should not take 7 seconds for a new tab to open in an existing window and you need to find out what might be causing this delay. Note that "opening a new tab" is not the same as "starting the browser".
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

link68759

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by link68759 » 2013-12-31, 20:56

Moonchild wrote:
link68759 wrote:My warm start is 7 seconds moonchild, I wasn't aware there was such a thing as a cold start so I haven't measured it yet. You say 7 seconds is acceptable........ if I click a link on a web page, is it acceptable to wait 7 seconds for a new tab to be opened, before the page even starts downloading?
If you aren't running Pale Moon yet, then that is the amount of time it will take. Think of it this way: if you click a .doc in explorer, is 30 seconds for Office to start acceptable? I'd say so.

If you are already running Pale Moon and you are clicking a link in a web page opened in it, then it most certainly should not take 7 seconds for a new tab to open in an existing window and you need to find out what might be causing this delay. Note that "opening a new tab" is not the same as "starting the browser".
The new office takes less than 3 seconds to start up on all my devices. If it consistently takes any longer, something is wrong with it, and I troubleshoot.

I'm aware opening a new tab doesn't take 7 seconds. I was making a comparison to illustrate why 7 seconds is unacceptable- you don't think it's reasonable to wait 7 seconds for a new tab? I don't think it's reasonable to wait 7 seconds for the browser to start. These scenarios are effectively the same in terms of workflow- I'm clicking a link to go to a web page, and it takes 7+ seconds for that web page to pop up if the browser is not already running. That's just not acceptable.

I'm not trying to blame palemoon, I'm aware this is a firefox issue. It's just annoying that most of my video games load faster than my browser does. You seem to have a high tolerance for waiting upon loading times, which is fine if you have older hardware. I do not have old hardware. I made this computer, I know it in and out. If something is slow, something is broken which is *not okay*- or the program in question is just poorly optimized. Software designed well, runs well, as the new office and many games illustrate. Then we have firefox which feels like grinding gears by comparison.
Another testament to firefox not being very optimized is its smooth scrolling being rather choppy, particularly where touch input is involved (and it still uses painfully slow quantum zooming when you try to pinch zoom...). On the other hand, it's stable and there is no alternative that can match the power of its extensions.

Also, "you can wait", "it's not that long" doesn't seem like the right attitude to take, coming from the person who is optimizing firefox to make it faster :P
If that's your position, then why bother optimizing at all?

To whoever recommended minimize to tray......thank but it's just confusing. I'm sure you get used to it, but I found "minimize on close", which makes a lot more sense to me.

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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-01-01, 09:33

link68759 wrote:you don't think it's reasonable to wait 7 seconds for a new tab? I don't think it's reasonable to wait 7 seconds for the browser to start.
Then the answer is simple:
  1. Don't use Pale Moon, or
  2. Keep it running at all times.
If you are that hurried in your work flow, you have no business closing the browser constantly if you need it that regularly. So Option 2 would be good for you.

I think the rest of your argument is moot when you really look at the situation, and you should focus on pragmatic solutions to your personal practical problem with Pale Moon, and not try to bend iron with your will.

By the way: If office starts in 3 seconds you probably have a fast machine - warm starts should be similar to my own (2.x seconds) unless you have some odd configuration or loaded profile or very slow-to-init add-ons in your browser.
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"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-01-01, 10:01

link68759 wrote:Also, "you can wait", "it's not that long" doesn't seem like the right attitude to take, coming from the person who is optimizing firefox to make it faster :P
If that's your position, then why bother optimizing at all?
As an afterthought to my previous post, I should probably make clear that "how fast it loads" and "how optimized it is" (when running) are two completely unrelated things, and depend on totally different factors. It would be the same as saying "Windows XP loads so much faster" but it won't do any of the advanced desktop composition anywhere near as fast as Windows 7 when it's running.

Loading time depends on many factors external to Pale Moon (disk I/O, add-ons loaded, AV checking of files on-the-fly as they are accessed, etc.) while running the browser once loaded depends on internal factors to Pale Moon (CPU instruction set, GPU usage, Input handling, JS compiling, etc.)
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"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

megaman

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by megaman » 2014-01-01, 15:07

This is really left for Mozilla to work with.

If Mozilla's team was able to fix memory leaks from add-ons, countless amounts of add-ons for that matter, on their end, they should be able to work on a fast-boot (.5 - 2 seconds on warm and/or cold) even with 100000 add-ons installed.

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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-01-01, 15:12

megaman wrote:This is really left for Mozilla to work with.
Agreed. Instead they focus on "precaching" in omnijar, apparently, to make the very first boot faster - addressing symptoms but not causes, IMHO.
If Mozilla's team was able to fix memory leaks from add-ons, countless amounts of add-ons for that matter, on their end, they should be able to work on a fast-boot (.5 - 2 seconds on warm and/or cold) even with 100000 add-ons installed.
Not exactly.

JavaScript in add-ons, if they are considered "hot scripts" (called often) are compiled by the JIT compiler. So you see, starting the browser with a lot of add-ons, a good chunk of time is spent compiling scripts into machine code on-the-fly. So add-ons will always cumulatively slow down browser starts.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

megaman

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by megaman » 2014-01-01, 15:31

Moonchild wrote:JavaScript in add-ons, if they are considered "hot scripts" (called often) are compiled by the JIT compiler. So you see, starting the browser with a lot of add-ons, a good chunk of time is spent compiling scripts into machine code on-the-fly. So add-ons will always cumulatively slow down browser starts.
Main message of the second one was that we could have had solutions to many of these problems by now, this problem has been addressed for years. Mozilla is holding back and it is something that benefits everyone.

Edit: I just do the trim_on_minimize, as is and then set the "value" as hibernate. Restart, right?
Edit: I must've done it wrong as my RAM doesn't begin dropping when I minimize it.

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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-01-01, 16:05

"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

link68759

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by link68759 » 2014-01-01, 18:17

Moonchild wrote:
link68759 wrote:you don't think it's reasonable to wait 7 seconds for a new tab? I don't think it's reasonable to wait 7 seconds for the browser to start.
Then the answer is simple:
  1. Don't use Pale Moon, or
  2. Keep it running at all times.
If you are that hurried in your work flow, you have no business closing the browser constantly if you need it that regularly. So Option 2 would be good for you.

I think the rest of your argument is moot when you really look at the situation, and you should focus on pragmatic solutions to your personal practical problem with Pale Moon, and not try to bend iron with your will.

By the way: If office starts in 3 seconds you probably have a fast machine - warm starts should be similar to my own (2.x seconds) unless you have some odd configuration or loaded profile or very slow-to-init add-ons in your browser.
I have 38-40 extensions which is most definitely the problem. Also I've become so dependent on some of them I could never completely leave the firefox platform either.

I try to keep palemoon running 24/7, but as I keep coming back to, that preloader extension would be nice to have, if we could figure out why it isn't working or find some alternative that does work with palemoon. For now I guess I'll see if a startup shortcut with "start minimized" checked works as expected.

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