Speed up boot times

Users and developers helping users with generic and technical Pale Moon issues on all operating systems.

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jumba

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by jumba » 2013-12-31, 08:34

Trinoc wrote:I can never understand why programs which people frequently want to keep running in the background (browsers, emailers, etc.) do not have minimizing to the system tray as a standard option.

With Palemoon I use "MinimizeToTray revived" (https://tn123.org/mintrayr/). I use the option to minimize to the tray when I click on close ("[x]"), to prevent me from accidentally shutting it down, but there is the option of only catching the minimize button.

Minimizing on close has an unfortunate "feature" in that if you close a secondary window (often even a pop-up) this ends up minimized to the tray as well, and you can end up with multiple Palemoon icons in the tray. It's annoying, but you can get rid of the extras by right clicking the icon in the tray and selecting "Close window".

I normally start up Palemoon (and Thunderbird) just once on boot-up. If I need the memory they are using for something else they just get swapped out to the page file.
I'm also using MinimizeToTray revived. Browser is the only program that I'm using all the time, and it is better to be always loaded.

One problem with the addon was that it doesn't have an option (like "single window mode") to bring the minimized browser instance in front when new instances are opened through a shortcut from the desktop or quicklaunch bar. I found an solution for this to use "-new-tab <url>" as a launch parameter for the shortcuts, and it is now working perfectly!

Also this addon can be combined with the addon "Minimize On Start and Close" and launch the browser on system boot to have it waiting in the tray.

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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Moonchild » 2013-12-31, 08:41

link68759 wrote:My warm start is 7 seconds moonchild, I wasn't aware there was such a thing as a cold start so I haven't measured it yet. You say 7 seconds is acceptable........ if I click a link on a web page, is it acceptable to wait 7 seconds for a new tab to be opened, before the page even starts downloading?
If you aren't running Pale Moon yet, then that is the amount of time it will take. Think of it this way: if you click a .doc in explorer, is 30 seconds for Office to start acceptable? I'd say so.

If you are already running Pale Moon and you are clicking a link in a web page opened in it, then it most certainly should not take 7 seconds for a new tab to open in an existing window and you need to find out what might be causing this delay. Note that "opening a new tab" is not the same as "starting the browser".
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
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link68759

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by link68759 » 2013-12-31, 20:56

Moonchild wrote:
link68759 wrote:My warm start is 7 seconds moonchild, I wasn't aware there was such a thing as a cold start so I haven't measured it yet. You say 7 seconds is acceptable........ if I click a link on a web page, is it acceptable to wait 7 seconds for a new tab to be opened, before the page even starts downloading?
If you aren't running Pale Moon yet, then that is the amount of time it will take. Think of it this way: if you click a .doc in explorer, is 30 seconds for Office to start acceptable? I'd say so.

If you are already running Pale Moon and you are clicking a link in a web page opened in it, then it most certainly should not take 7 seconds for a new tab to open in an existing window and you need to find out what might be causing this delay. Note that "opening a new tab" is not the same as "starting the browser".
The new office takes less than 3 seconds to start up on all my devices. If it consistently takes any longer, something is wrong with it, and I troubleshoot.

I'm aware opening a new tab doesn't take 7 seconds. I was making a comparison to illustrate why 7 seconds is unacceptable- you don't think it's reasonable to wait 7 seconds for a new tab? I don't think it's reasonable to wait 7 seconds for the browser to start. These scenarios are effectively the same in terms of workflow- I'm clicking a link to go to a web page, and it takes 7+ seconds for that web page to pop up if the browser is not already running. That's just not acceptable.

I'm not trying to blame palemoon, I'm aware this is a firefox issue. It's just annoying that most of my video games load faster than my browser does. You seem to have a high tolerance for waiting upon loading times, which is fine if you have older hardware. I do not have old hardware. I made this computer, I know it in and out. If something is slow, something is broken which is *not okay*- or the program in question is just poorly optimized. Software designed well, runs well, as the new office and many games illustrate. Then we have firefox which feels like grinding gears by comparison.
Another testament to firefox not being very optimized is its smooth scrolling being rather choppy, particularly where touch input is involved (and it still uses painfully slow quantum zooming when you try to pinch zoom...). On the other hand, it's stable and there is no alternative that can match the power of its extensions.

Also, "you can wait", "it's not that long" doesn't seem like the right attitude to take, coming from the person who is optimizing firefox to make it faster :P
If that's your position, then why bother optimizing at all?

To whoever recommended minimize to tray......thank but it's just confusing. I'm sure you get used to it, but I found "minimize on close", which makes a lot more sense to me.

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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-01-01, 09:33

link68759 wrote:you don't think it's reasonable to wait 7 seconds for a new tab? I don't think it's reasonable to wait 7 seconds for the browser to start.
Then the answer is simple:
  1. Don't use Pale Moon, or
  2. Keep it running at all times.
If you are that hurried in your work flow, you have no business closing the browser constantly if you need it that regularly. So Option 2 would be good for you.

I think the rest of your argument is moot when you really look at the situation, and you should focus on pragmatic solutions to your personal practical problem with Pale Moon, and not try to bend iron with your will.

By the way: If office starts in 3 seconds you probably have a fast machine - warm starts should be similar to my own (2.x seconds) unless you have some odd configuration or loaded profile or very slow-to-init add-ons in your browser.
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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-01-01, 10:01

link68759 wrote:Also, "you can wait", "it's not that long" doesn't seem like the right attitude to take, coming from the person who is optimizing firefox to make it faster :P
If that's your position, then why bother optimizing at all?
As an afterthought to my previous post, I should probably make clear that "how fast it loads" and "how optimized it is" (when running) are two completely unrelated things, and depend on totally different factors. It would be the same as saying "Windows XP loads so much faster" but it won't do any of the advanced desktop composition anywhere near as fast as Windows 7 when it's running.

Loading time depends on many factors external to Pale Moon (disk I/O, add-ons loaded, AV checking of files on-the-fly as they are accessed, etc.) while running the browser once loaded depends on internal factors to Pale Moon (CPU instruction set, GPU usage, Input handling, JS compiling, etc.)
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

megaman

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by megaman » 2014-01-01, 15:07

This is really left for Mozilla to work with.

If Mozilla's team was able to fix memory leaks from add-ons, countless amounts of add-ons for that matter, on their end, they should be able to work on a fast-boot (.5 - 2 seconds on warm and/or cold) even with 100000 add-ons installed.

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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-01-01, 15:12

megaman wrote:This is really left for Mozilla to work with.
Agreed. Instead they focus on "precaching" in omnijar, apparently, to make the very first boot faster - addressing symptoms but not causes, IMHO.
If Mozilla's team was able to fix memory leaks from add-ons, countless amounts of add-ons for that matter, on their end, they should be able to work on a fast-boot (.5 - 2 seconds on warm and/or cold) even with 100000 add-ons installed.
Not exactly.

JavaScript in add-ons, if they are considered "hot scripts" (called often) are compiled by the JIT compiler. So you see, starting the browser with a lot of add-ons, a good chunk of time is spent compiling scripts into machine code on-the-fly. So add-ons will always cumulatively slow down browser starts.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

megaman

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by megaman » 2014-01-01, 15:31

Moonchild wrote:JavaScript in add-ons, if they are considered "hot scripts" (called often) are compiled by the JIT compiler. So you see, starting the browser with a lot of add-ons, a good chunk of time is spent compiling scripts into machine code on-the-fly. So add-ons will always cumulatively slow down browser starts.
Main message of the second one was that we could have had solutions to many of these problems by now, this problem has been addressed for years. Mozilla is holding back and it is something that benefits everyone.

Edit: I just do the trim_on_minimize, as is and then set the "value" as hibernate. Restart, right?
Edit: I must've done it wrong as my RAM doesn't begin dropping when I minimize it.

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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-01-01, 16:05

"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

link68759

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by link68759 » 2014-01-01, 18:17

Moonchild wrote:
link68759 wrote:you don't think it's reasonable to wait 7 seconds for a new tab? I don't think it's reasonable to wait 7 seconds for the browser to start.
Then the answer is simple:
  1. Don't use Pale Moon, or
  2. Keep it running at all times.
If you are that hurried in your work flow, you have no business closing the browser constantly if you need it that regularly. So Option 2 would be good for you.

I think the rest of your argument is moot when you really look at the situation, and you should focus on pragmatic solutions to your personal practical problem with Pale Moon, and not try to bend iron with your will.

By the way: If office starts in 3 seconds you probably have a fast machine - warm starts should be similar to my own (2.x seconds) unless you have some odd configuration or loaded profile or very slow-to-init add-ons in your browser.
I have 38-40 extensions which is most definitely the problem. Also I've become so dependent on some of them I could never completely leave the firefox platform either.

I try to keep palemoon running 24/7, but as I keep coming back to, that preloader extension would be nice to have, if we could figure out why it isn't working or find some alternative that does work with palemoon. For now I guess I'll see if a startup shortcut with "start minimized" checked works as expected.

megaman

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by megaman » 2014-01-02, 03:39

Moonchild wrote:http://kb.mozillazine.org/Config.trim_on_minimize

Boolean value, true or false.
It doesn't seem to work, I don't see a drop on RAM usage, but this could be what I am looking for, when it does happen to work.

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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-01-02, 08:34

It's not instant, megaman. It just sets Pale Moon to be swappable more easily when there is memory pressure.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Trinoc » 2014-01-02, 12:25

link68759 wrote:I try to keep palemoon running 24/7, but as I keep coming back to, that preloader extension would be nice to have, if we could figure out why it isn't working or find some alternative that does work with palemoon. For now I guess I'll see if a startup shortcut with "start minimized" checked works as expected.
"Start minimized" doesn't seem to work with Palemoon (or Firefox, or any other browser I've tried it with). There are extensions which claim to do this, but I haven't found one of these that works either. You'll probably have to let it start normally and click minimize manually.

megaman

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by megaman » 2014-01-02, 16:05

Moonchild wrote:It's not instant, megaman. It just sets Pale Moon to be swappable more easily when there is memory pressure.
Thanks for the heads-up, I will try the RAM Drive next.

link68759

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by link68759 » 2014-01-02, 18:42

Trinoc wrote:
link68759 wrote:I try to keep palemoon running 24/7, but as I keep coming back to, that preloader extension would be nice to have, if we could figure out why it isn't working or find some alternative that does work with palemoon. For now I guess I'll see if a startup shortcut with "start minimized" checked works as expected.
"Start minimized" doesn't seem to work with Palemoon (or Firefox, or any other browser I've tried it with). There are extensions which claim to do this, but I haven't found one of these that works either. You'll probably have to let it start normally and click minimize manually.
I had the same experience with XP and 7, but under 8.1, start minimized shortcut setting works fine, as well as an extension "minimize on start and close" does what it promises.

megaman

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by megaman » 2014-01-05, 16:35

Finally put time to try the RAMDisk option. It does boot up 2 seconds faster, so that is an improvement totaling 4 - 6 seconds, but it leaves me doubts with the program saving and not saving my session. One blackout at any moment could cost me.

Actually, no idea how but Palemoon loads up faster now, even at cold boost, mystery that I will need to unveil. I am good for now.

chedemefedeme

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by chedemefedeme » 2014-01-20, 04:17

I think I've found out exactly how to do what you're asking. I used this for years with Firefox and now, with just a slight tweak, am using it perfectly with Pale Moon.

Firefox Preloader is open source and available here http://sourceforge.net/projects/ffpreloader/

To use it with pale moon you need to do three things:
1) Duplicate palemoon.exe in its program folder and make the second one's name firefox.exe
2) Open Preloader's settings and point it to your palemoon folder, not the default firefox program folder
3) Modify any shortcuts you use to open PaleMoon to point to your "firefox.exe" copy of palemoon.

Done! Preloader keeps palemoon in ram at all times even after you've closed all visible windows. Literally took my load time from 4 seconds to 1 second when asking for a new window when no others were open.

No ramdrive needed. Again used for years with Firefox without issues but I'm really happy to report that it has given me zero issues with Pale Moon now that I'm a recent convert. Hope this helps someone!

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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-01-20, 10:06

Unfortunately renaming palemoon.exe to firefox.exe will break a few things (jumplists will probably not work, and file associations will probably break as well, starting a non-preloaded palemoon.exe instead).

What should be done is rebuilding the preloader specifically for Pale Moon. Since it's open source,that should be easy enough to do. Anyone feel adventurous and have the time? ;-)
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

chedemefedeme

Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by chedemefedeme » 2014-01-20, 19:44

That would actually be pretty easy to do. I don't have a windows dev env set up right now (I do web development primarily) so I'll either do it at a later point or someone else will beat me to the punch.

I knew it probably wasn't a perfect find but it sure as heck has improved my use of this already awesome project (pale moon) so I wanted to share it with others!

As for file associations..I was able to associate with my renamed file in windows 8 and opening links and the like pulls up the precached copy just fine.

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Re: Speed up boot times

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-01-20, 21:09

The only worry i have with a preloader that actually uses the active profile is: you never end your session. If you need to restart Pale Moon for a pref change or extension installation, for example, how is this handled by the preloader?
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
"Linux makes everything difficult." -- Lyceus Anubite

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