Re: (SOLVED) A few minor improvements

[jumba]

Also, I think it makes no sense having an exit button there with no option of a restart, you might as well remove that as I don't see how people find that useful and if they even use it when you have a big exit button up on top. Now a restart button/option you don't.

Exit --> Quit application, meaning that all windows are closed
X --> Close the window

I'm using it all the time because I have one window opened for each screen and I need to restore them on start.

Come to think of it, do any other programs have a restart in the File context menu? Restarting a program or operating system is something that is usually done only if it is a must. If application or operating system requires a restart it is asked from the user, for example just like PM does on updates and addon state changes.

Are you guys getting how I feel and saying?

Rationally no But I think I'm almost alone in this thread saying no to it. In the previous discussion it was said that it could be added to the PMC.

Well I guess the way I do things is not how everyone does it or should, I don't know, I just feel crowded with all these add-ons doing little small jobs.

That is what addons are for to do small jobs. It is not a negative thing. With same reasoning any other button should be added to the browser core that some users find handy. Old Opera had some kind of button generator or something to make custom button creation easier, maybe something like that should be added instead.

[Supernova]

That is what addons are for to do small jobs. It is not a negative thing. With same reasoning any other button should be added to the browser core that some users find handy. Old Opera had some kind of button generator or something to make custom button creation easier, maybe something like that should be added instead.

The question is "does it hurt in any way to make it core" ?
When the answer is "No" ; I find that "but let's keep it as an add-on instead" mentality absurd and tiring.

[jumba]

To me the answer is "Yes". In the previous topic the user who asked this feature used the restart functionality for things that do not require to use it. If a restart is required then application should prompt user for confirmation before restarting automatically.

this is the topic I'm referring to http://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php ... 10&p=27383

If restart is required to keep application usable, I guess it is handy indeed.

[LimboSlam]

The question is "does it hurt in any way to make it core" ?
When the answer is "No" ; I find that "but let's keep it as an add-on instead" mentality absurd and tiring.

Yes this what I exactly mean, how I feel.

If a restart is required then application should prompt user for confirmation before restarting automatically.

Yes, I agree with this all the way. Not the other way around where the browser restarts automatically either by an option/button in the browser or the user accidentally pushes a key button to restart browser automatically without a prompt first; NO, I would never go for that!

[LimboSlam]

Hey MC, what's your stand on adding "restart option?" I read your other post, just want to know from you though.

[Moonchild]

When the answer is "No" ; I find that "but let's keep it as an add-on instead" mentality absurd and tiring.

Adding something to the core is not only determined by "whether it would hurt". It is also determined by "how many people actually need this" and "is anyone going to help us implement and maintain this feature once it's in the core" -- if you want to talk about tiring, maintaining a zillion tools and gadgets is. As much as Mozilla has been shouting "cost of maintenance" for removing features, it is very much an issue when you have a very small team and don't have $200M a year to spend, so adding additional features is something to carefully consider from a time-available perspective, too.

Hey MC, what's your stand on adding "restart option?" I read your other post, just want to know from you though.

I don't see a problem adding this as a menu option, if it's actually desired by enough people. Patches are welcome.

[Supernova]

When the answer is "No" ; I find that "but let's keep it as an add-on instead" mentality absurd and tiring.

Adding something to the core is not only determined by "whether it would hurt". It is also determined by "how many people actually need this" and "is anyone going to help us implement and maintain this feature once it's in the core" -- if you want to talk about tiring, maintaining a zillion tools and gadgets is. As much as Mozilla has been shouting "cost of maintenance" for removing features, it is very much an issue when you have a very small team and don't have $200M a year to spend, so adding additional features is something to carefully consider from a time-available perspective, too.

Hi MC, I understand this perspective, however this isn't the argument that the "keep it as an add-on" people resort to.

We also weren't in a topic discussing heavy changes. The green indicator when a search engine can be added, the restart button, or like in another topic a handful more toolbar buttons, won't ever compare in maintenance to, e.g., the hell that is sync.

[LimboSlam]

Yes these are small features to be added vs a built in live chat and messaging platform as Firefox has done, or newly ad/privacy blocker that is soon to become part of Firefox. This is of course my opinion and I had no clue these features would be hard to maintain; I'm no dev (a good coder) so I can't say that I could even help out with patches, sorry. I just thought these small features (more of an improvement to Pale Moon) would be useful and easy to integrate.

So........?

[Moonchild]

Hi MC, I understand this perspective, however this isn't the argument that the "keep it as an add-on" people resort to.

It is, because I'd be one of the people saying "keep it as an add-on" if it really isn't a compelling added value to the majority of users

This is of course my opinion and I had no clue these features would be hard to maintain;

Some will, some won't. But all of it takes time and effort to implement, which is in a little bit short supply (hence the patches welcome remark) and each "small feature" adds complexity to the code base - more complexity also means more risk for added bugs and reduced efficiency/performance. I don't expect something like that from a restart menu entry, of course, but other seemingly simple features at the surface would have a large impact under the hood or require rewriting or changing established stable, and often rather touchy, code.

In some respects, the actual add-on framework keeps the desired features isolated and self-contained, which may be exactly what you want -- and in that case cracking open the browser UI code to weave it in and recreate the desired level of isolation for the code is going to be both reinventing the wheel and potentially adding bugs that don't have to exist. Keep in mind that extensibility of the browser is a core feature of Pale Moon in itself; so use it!

[Supernova]

Hi MC, I understand this perspective, however this isn't the argument that the "keep it as an add-on" people resort to.

It is, because I'd be one of the people saying "keep it as an add-on" if it really isn't a compelling added value to the majority of users

The "majority" criterion isn't a fair one, and you should know it.
Aside very basic features, all other are used by a minority. Hell, majority probably could live with it if you supressed bookmarks.

[LimboSlam]

So I would like at least a the restart option in Pale Moon drop down menu (image above) . How about anyone else, um official answers on this? Thanks.

But I also understand your point MC, "Keep in mind that extensibility of the browser is a core feature of Pale Moon in itself; so use it!"

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Since you seemed to miss it amongst the normal controversy..

Hey MC, what's your stand on adding "restart option?" I read your other post, just want to know from you though.

I don't see a problem adding this as a menu option, if it's actually desired by enough people. Patches are welcome.

[CharmCityCrab]

I don't particularly need/want a "restart" button, but *if* one is going to be implemented, may I suggest it be placed under the "Help" menu? Right now, there is an option there entitled "Restart with Add-Ons Disabled". So, from a UI perspective, I would say the place to add "Restart Normally" would be right above that in the "Help" menu, if it's added. Thus both restarts would be in the same sub-menu, with the regular restart listed first and variant (add-ons disabled) listed second.

Just trying to help with what I see as the most logical UI layout to use if the option is implemented. I couldn't tell what was being proposed on that front in the first post because it's using that thing that replaced the normal menus (Part of why I left Firefox- I hate that thing. File/Edit/View/History/Bookmarks/Tools/Help for life. ), so I figured I'd weigh in. I'm being a little pedantic here, but I just figured if it's going to be done...

I don't personally understand why we need it, but if we're doing it, that's my implementation suggestion.

Off-topic:
Speaking of Firefox dropping the File menus and such, it was obvious as can be when they dropped it and offered reverted the change as a user option to placate the masses, that the option was going to disappear completely when the masses using it dropped a bit in size, and totally transparent that the implication that it'd be there forever was a lie. One day a couple years ago, I had to reinstall Windows or Firefox, or had a new PC or something, and realized it would have taken me like 7 hours of Internet searching and stuff to find all the little stuff that reversed the horrible changes I'd reverted on every revision with my old Firefox during a time period where it seemed like every update had an unpleasant surprise like the elimination of the "http://" and so on and so forth (Sometimes I'd wind up even have to get into the enable/disable hidden options not in the UI at all). At that point, I just said screw it, I don't have 7 hours to spend doing this, if they want to be Chrome, I'll go use Chrome, because Chrome is always going to be the better Chrome, and downloaded that. Thank goodness I eventually found Pale Moon- what Firefox should be and isn't- so I didn't have to use either Chrome or Buggy-18 Months Behind-Chrome (aka Firefox).

Firefox doesn't offer an alternative to Chrome on desktop anymore. It's Chrome, on delay, with more bugs. Pale Moon is awesome and I really appreciate all the hard work MoonChild and Matt and everyone is putting in to offer it to us. Pale Moon is the true and only alternative.

A bit different on Android where Pale Moon isn't being actively developed and any browser is obviously are going to have a different UI than desktop anyway because it's a small touch screen. Firefox is still okay there, so I use it there (After realizing I could be using ad-block on mobile. Chrome doesn't offer it on mobile because it'd cut into their revenue and they wouldn't being pushed for marketshare on Android.) but I don't really trust them to keep it okay.

Something went horribly wrong with Mozilla a few years ago. It'll be interesting if someone on the inside ever comes out and really details why they suddenly decided they needed to be a locked down Chrome clone with no customize-ability.

[Antonius32]

So, from a UI perspective, I would say the place to add "Restart Normally" would be right above that in the "Help" menu, if it's added.

I don't agree; restarting the browser is not necessarily a troubleshooting measure. IMHO, the entry should be in the "File" menu, right above the "Exit" entry.

File/Edit/View/History/Bookmarks/Tools/Help for life. And can I just mention that Mozilla lied when they said they'd keep it as an option?

I'm not sure what you mean; Firefox still has the Menu Bar, doesn't it?

[LimboSlam]

Right now, there is an option there entitled "Restart with Add-Ons Disabled". So, from a UI perspective, I would say the place to add "Restart Normally" would be right above that in the "Help" menu, if it's added. Thus both restarts would be in the same sub-menu, with the regular restart listed first and variant (add-ons disabled) listed second.

Ok I get that, but my intended idea was to make restarting Pale Moon more efficiently (one click to restart) vs exiting out the whole browser and then waiting those few seconds for it to restart (those on slow system may experience this, but longer), not as a "Safe Mode" option. Another way of thinking of this, would be when Pale Moon gets really sluggish and you just want to insure a quick recovery of your current tabs (session restore).

I mean yes, technically it could be used for that certain situation, but I think it's best to keep it apart.

[Omitooshi]

Maybe the real improvement would be to simply need to restart less, or at least faster.

[Moonchild]

Maybe the real improvement would be to simply need to restart less, or at least faster.

I hardly ever restart Pale Moon I mean.. my sessions easily run for up to a week, and tend to get shut down only when I actually perform a full shutdown of my system. So, there is, in my experience, very little reason to have a "restart" option, but if that is what people want, then it's an option to get added. See above.

[half-moon]

Maybe the real improvement would be to simply need to restart less, or at least faster.

I hardly ever restart Pale Moon I mean.. my sessions easily run for up to a week, and tend to get shut down only when I actually perform a full shutdown of my system. So, there is, in my experience, very little reason to have a "restart" option, but if that is what people want, then it's an option to get added. See above.

Off-topic:
I never would have a browser open that long. At most my browser would be open a couple hours.

[New Tobin Paradigm]

I can see the benefit for a restart menu item. But since Moonchild said he would accept such a patch and it would be relatively simple and could steal code from similiar function (like for instance when you install an extension or switch theme from add-on manager) to make it happen.. I dunno why discussion of "If we should do it or if not" is still happening.. It wouldn't be difficult to maintain once done and wouldn't cause any performance issues or anything and enough people seem to want it.

So what is the problem?

[LimboSlam]

Ok since enough people want it and there is a sufficient cause of using it, this topic is done now, right. Well unless I missed something here?

The other two are still up to debate and should be started in a new topic, green circle indicating a new search engine and the expansion of other search engines in the context menu.