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deuiore

When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by deuiore » 2014-11-04, 13:15

Now the only available options are: "A blank page" (actually a branded page, so it's not really blank), The Pale Moon Start Page (a link to a Pale Moon website) and "The Quickdial Page".
I find it very limiting that there is no way to set a custom page without recurring to manually editing browser.newtab.url. Not even the Home Page!

New Tobin Paradigm

Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by New Tobin Paradigm » 2014-11-04, 17:51

How is it truely any different. The ONLY difference is about:logopage vs about:blank

mikeysc

Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by mikeysc » 2014-11-04, 18:00

Suggestion for 25.0.3 or 25.1.0: Just go ahead and give them a "Blank page without logo"choice so we can put this to rest. But still keep the logopage choice also. My 2¢.

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Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-11-04, 19:35

People can already set it to a "piece of paper" white absolutely visually "blanco" page if they want.
A watermark in a piece of paper doesn't make it any less blank of a piece of paper, so can people please stop using that as an argument. Yes? Please?

Yes, it involves using about:config if they really want to change it at this time. I will add this to Pale Moon Commander when I get around to it. PMC is on the back-burner at the moment because of important, urgent core work.

The page with logo as a blank page has been designed on purpose to not be stark white, to follow your Windows color theme, and in general to blend in better with the rest of the browser and OS. But if you hate it, then nothing stops you from changing it.

Mikey: unfortunately, adding options to anything in the UI will immediately invalidate all language packs. Any added options or strings have to be carefully considered.
And what's next? People will want me to add "my favorite image" or "a calendar" or "the current time" as options for a new tab... Because all of those can be valid considerations for new tabs depending on the environment where you want to use the browser.

All in all, I think this is a situation where people will have to realize what I wrote up a long time ago:
http://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=913
It is the sticky in this very board.

No, i will not go out of my way to have new options alongside all historical ones when they are redundant. And keeping a blank page and a different blank page in the Options UI is redundant.
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Supernova

Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by Supernova » 2014-11-05, 01:15

Honestly, adding the possibility in normal options to set a custom page as a new tab page would be good.

mikeysc

Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by mikeysc » 2014-11-05, 02:23

Well, I was going to let MoonChild's post be the last word, because he doesn't have to change anything if he doesn't want to, but since you added to it, I'll comment again.

I believe it is possible to modify it without altering the language strings, assuming the user wouldn't mind typing their equivalent of "about:blank" once. One way is to just use the same functionality that is present for the home page setting. Here's a quick mockup:
Clipboard05.png
I know one response is likely to be what''s the difference between typing it there and typing it in about:config. And I would say not much except not all users are as comfortable with config editing as with Options.

Another possibility that doesn't require additional developer effort beyond the above is that I (or anyone) could also make some variations of new tab pages and post them online where other users simply have to load the page they like, then use the "Use Current Pages" button that would be added if the suggestion above is implemented. The advantage is the user would not have to fiddle with CSS or do any config editing. It may be overkill for something that is so trivial but it seems a lot of users who don't like tweaking program settings expect easy ways to do things.

One other option I thought of that would not need language changes is to present the options as thumbnail images that could be clicked. The logo version, a blank white page [and ____?].

EDIT: A third option, that is a bit radical, is to eliminate empty new tabs. We really don't need them. When you use right click context menu option or a toolbar button to open a link in a new tab then it is not empty. The only time I can think of when we open empty new tabs is when we want to enter a URL either by typing or by selecting a bookmark. IF we had a special button to open the typed-url/bookmark in a new tab, we would not need to open an empty tab first. On the other hand might not work because some users probably drag and drop links on empty new tab pages.

But I'm absolutely fine with no changes at all; I just expect the questions and comments to keep coming.
Last edited by mikeysc on 2014-11-05, 02:49, edited 3 times in total.

access2godzilla

Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by access2godzilla » 2014-11-05, 02:26

+1 for mikeysc's suggestion, as that could be done without altering the langpacks at all.

deuiore

Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by deuiore » 2014-11-05, 05:53

Huh, wait, how did this turn into an argument about about:logopage and what the word "blank" truly means?
This is what I meant. Especially the "Show my home page" part, since that's what I'm most interested about and at least that could be achieved without messing with language packs.
Then in the future, when there are no more pressing issues, a text field grayed out by default until the user selects "Custom" or something and specifies whatever URL he wants would be ideal.

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Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-11-05, 11:01

deuiore wrote:Huh, wait, how did this turn into an argument about about:logopage and what the word "blank" truly means?
Because that is the argument you made in the OP, saying the logo page isn't really blank? "Blank" as even stated in your link is "devoid of covering or content; especially : free from writing or marks <blank paper>". A watermark is not content. If I were to display the logo with more opacity, then you could consider it a form of content, but even so, you are not displaying any content in terms of a web browser (no internal info page, no web content, no off-line content, etc.).
This is what I meant. Especially the "Show my home page" part, since that's what I'm most interested about and at least that could be achieved without messing with language packs.
Then in the future, when there are no more pressing issues, a text field grayed out by default until the user selects "Custom" or something and specifies whatever URL he wants would be ideal.
No; although Mikey's idea is admirable, it can't be done that easily. For example: your "home page" can consist of multiple tabs/pages, and you can't use that for a new tab. It would require rigorous sanitation if I wanted to make it "fool-proof" which I honestly don't see the point in, either. Any "custom text entry" is risky when exposed to users who may not realize what they are changing, so I'd rather avoid that kind of thing in the core when there are already good choices present.

As said I will add an easy way to enter a custom URL to Pale Moon Commander, when I get time to work on that extension again. That should suffice for people "not comfortable with using about:config" who still want to tweak this, as that is the chief purpose of that extension, anyway.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past; wisdom is of the future." -- Native American proverb
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deuiore

Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by deuiore » 2014-11-05, 11:32

Moonchild wrote:
deuiore wrote:Huh, wait, how did this turn into an argument about about:logopage and what the word "blank" truly means?
Because that is the argument people made, saying the logo page isn't blank? "Blank" as even stated in your link is "devoid of covering or content; especially : free from writing or marks <blank paper>". A watermark is not content. If I were to display the logo with more opacity, then you could consider it a form of content, but even so, you are not displaying any content in terms of a web browser (no internal info page, no web content, no off-line content, etc.).
Well, in my opinion a "watermark", as the name implies, is still a "mark", whatever the form or the opacity. But I digress, all things said it's a matter of opinion, and that wasn't really the point I wanted to discuss.
This is what I meant. Especially the "Show my home page" part, since that's what I'm most interested about and at least that could be achieved without messing with language packs.
Then in the future, when there are no more pressing issues, a text field grayed out by default until the user selects "Custom" or something and specifies whatever URL he wants would be ideal.
No; although Mikey's idea is admirable, it can't be done that easily. For example: your "home page" can consist of multiple tabs/pages, and you can't use that for a new tab. It would require rigorous sanitation if I wanted to make it "fool-proof" which I honestly don't see the point in, either. Any "custom text entry" is risky when exposed to users who may not realize what they are changing, so I'd rather avoid that kind of thing in the core when there are already good choices present.

As said I will add an easy way to enter a custom URL to Pale Moon Commander, when I get time to work on that extension again. That should suffice for people "not comfortable with using about:config" who still want to tweak this, as that is the chief purpose of that extension, anyway.
You're right, a home PAGE can actually consist of multiple PAGES. I hadn't considered that!
I guess that poses a problem and the matter couldn't be solved like that. Although in my opinion what the users see each time they open a new tab is not such an "advanced" feature that should only be included in Pale Moon Commander.
Also I disagree that "there are already good choices present". I mean, okay for the blank page and the Quickdial, but you also provide an arbitrary "start page" which is not really that good of a choice, or any better than any of the countless startpage services a lot of users use (the main reason behind the idea of having the choice of using custom URL). I mean, it doesn't really look good, it's written in invalid HTML 4.01 and it doesn't seem like it's maintained at all: some of the images aren't even showing and their links don't work!

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Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-11-05, 12:22

deuiore wrote: I mean, it doesn't really look good, it's written in invalid HTML 4.01 and it doesn't seem like it's maintained at all: some of the images aren't even showing and their links don't work!
...
Does it matter that the markup is not 100% W3C validator valid when it's a browser-specific page that renders correctly in the intended client to be used in? No. I don't have to be compatible with any other browser. :)
Does it matter that it's a slightly older (but no less functional) HTML standard? No. In fact, the entire website is HTML 4.01.
Is it maintained? Sure is. Does that mean it can't be static? No.
If it renders correctly in Pale Moon then that is all that really matters. Keep in mind: I kept the old layout and old standard to remain compatible with the legacy version of Pale Moon for a while, since it's the default home page for it. When I have time, I will undoubtedly modernize the start page.

Once more: if you don't like the default choices, and want to enter a custom URL instead, you can change it in about:config (and PMC in the future). It's not my intention to ever supply any non-palemoon new tab link from the browser core and create bias that way for any particular service or page. That would be playing favorites and not being vendor-neutral.

And yes, it does render correctly. There are no missing images and links do work (unless you are, of course, blocking them with extensions, firewall, any other content blocking method). All images are contained on the same web server the page is served from, so if one loads, they should all load.
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Supernova

Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by Supernova » 2014-11-05, 12:28

Adding the possibility for the user to set a custom page don't pose in any way a threat for vendor neutrality.

deuiore

Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by deuiore » 2014-11-05, 12:50

First of all I'm sorry, the fact that some of the images weren't showing was indeed my adblocker's fault, though I've no idea how some of those images got in the blacklist. I'll check later. However the links should work even without the images, "Load images: Never" being a Pale Moon's built-in feature.
Moonchild wrote:Does it matter that the markup is not 100% W3C validator valid when it's a browser-specific page that renders correctly in the intended client to be used in? No. I don't have to be compatible with any other browser.
Does it matter that it's a slightly older (but no less functional) HTML standard? No. In fact, the entire website is HTML 4.01.
Well, for me it does. Again, it's a matter of opinion and the project is yours. But this is the "Suggestions/feature requests" forum after all. I thought I was at least permitted to express my opinions.
That said, at this point I don't know if you keep missing my point intentionally or not and just concentrate on my side-notes just to be contrary.
Once more: if you don't like the default choices, and want to enter a custom URL instead, you can change it in about:config (and PMC in the future). It's not my intention to ever supply any non-palemoon new tab link from the browser core and create bias that way for any particular service or page. That would be playing favorites and not being vendor-neutral.
Once more, this is the "Suggestions/feature requests" forum and I'm giving a suggestion that in no way implies what you're saying. Where did I even say to add arbitrary start pages to the drop-down list? I think it's in fact been the opposite all along: give the user the choice, not favoring anyone. Not even yourself.

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Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by Lucio Chiappetti » 2014-11-05, 14:00

As I said elsewhere, I do not particularly care if what shown in a new tab is a white-background page, or another colour, or has watermarks. What I care and wish is that the URL in the navigation toolbar is actually blank, so I can type in or paste in what I want, without having to remove what is there.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. (G.B. Shaw)

deuiore

Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by deuiore » 2014-11-05, 14:07

Lucio Chiappetti wrote:As I said elsewhere, I do not particularly care if what shown in a new tab is a white-background page, or another colour, or has watermarks. What I care and wish is that the URL in the navigation toolbar is actually blank, so I can type in or paste in what I want, without having to remove what is there.
Don't both "A blank page" and "The Quickdial page" already provide just that?

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Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by Lucio Chiappetti » 2014-11-05, 15:14

I haven't checked PM 25, I am still on 24 ... and anyhow I was just suggesting NOT to change the behaviour of blank URL in the future
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. (G.B. Shaw)

deuiore

Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by deuiore » 2014-11-05, 15:32

Lucio Chiappetti wrote:I haven't checked PM 25, I am still on 24 ... and anyhow I was just suggesting NOT to change the behaviour of blank URL in the future
Oh sure, I'm all for that.

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Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by Moonchild » 2014-11-05, 15:34

To wrap it up and get back on-topic, leaving tangential things like start page layout (and alt tags) aside: a custom URL choice in the GUI is a good suggestion and will be added to Pale Moon Commander.

I'll look into potentially adding it to the core later on, with the instructions to be careful with it.
"Sometimes, the best way to get what you want is to be a good person." -- Louis Rossmann
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deuiore

Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by deuiore » 2014-11-05, 15:38

Moonchild wrote:To wrap it up and get back on-topic, leaving tangential things like start page layout (and alt tags) aside: a custom URL choice in the GUI is a good suggestion and will be added to Pale Moon Commander.

I'll look into potentially adding it to the core later on, with the instructions to be careful with it.
Oh that's awesome. I'm really happy to hear it. :D

Supernova

Re: When opening a new tab, show:

Unread post by Supernova » 2014-11-05, 21:26

Good :thumbup:

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